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So make me welcome.......

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭standardg60


    This is utterly ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that anyone on the UK mainland ringing one of these call centres is concerned that A) that it is within the jurisdiction of the UK politically? or B) that they have any concern as to how the 'Irish' person they're talking to identifies their nationality?

    You wouldn't get the most ardent Brexiteer describing Ireland as a foreign country, only bigots like McAllister. As for 'making' you feel welcome, i can only assume you've never been down here, maybe you should try that first. Most people here treat other people as just that, people. We're not interested in painting kerbs or flying flags to mark our territory and indicate that others aren't welcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,391 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I mean I'm not even sure I believe my own post, the recent protests in East Wall certainly don't make Ireland seem very welcoming to minorities

    If it's any solace, I was raised catholic (theoretically) and I went to a Protestant public school, so no fees required, except the extortionate "voluntary" sub


    Now I'm an atheist and I'm forced to send me kids to a Catholic school because that's the only one in the area and all their friends go there


    If you're thinking that Ireland was a theocratic autocracy ruled by the church and looked like something from the handmaids tale, then you'll find no arguments from me


    The only upshot is that we've improved...a bit

    It's interesting to wonder how the hardline conservatives in unionist parties thought of Ireland in the early 2000's, when gay marriage and abortion were both forbidden by the constitution, all while the UK was generally becoming more liberal. I could see a situation where their only real problem with the ROI was that it was run by Catholics and not part of the UK

    The situation has definitely reversed, with ROI becoming (slowly and belatedly) more liberal and the UK moving to less tolerant politics

    They must think we're in some kind of woke liberal socialist nightmare down here 😏

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,391 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I think you're being a bit too generous to the Brexiteers, it wasn't that long ago that Priti Patel was threatening to starve the Irish into submission if we didn't roll over and let the UK have the brexit they wanted

    Apparently the British political establishment were describing us as the arrogant Irish at one point

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,396 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    No.

    You may be thinking of the 80 overnight inpatient fee, which AFAIK is due to be scrapped this year?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,049 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,713 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Unfortunately the unity focus that Catholicism gave is no longer present in the South; instead it has been replaced by the cult of tolerance in which anything goes except when you disagree with them and then the self-righteus aspects of the secular religion that make the Catholicism faith of old of the older generation seem benign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭standardg60


    The focus on religion as a means of identity as it stands in NI is the foremost reason why i wouldn't be voting for a UI



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,935 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    It's amazing how you can get Internet access in the Marx Laundries. 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The focus on Republicanism and Catholicism in the Republic is just one reason many in NI would'nt vote for a UI. They look at things such as the national ladies soccer team chanting up the RA, they look to the glorification of the IRA by naming train stations etc after them, they look to the indoctrination of kids here in schools, they look to the historical discrimination against those who did not pass compulsory Irish in the leaving cert by denying educational and career opportunies, they look to the unequality in the educational system where most c of I schools are not funded as much as RC schools and therefore most C of I schools have to charge fees ( average €3800 a year ) in order to survive etc.

    Anyway, our National debt is one of the highest in the world, despite all the money we got from the EU and the multinationals. Quote from RTE: " The State took on an additional €33 billion in debt over the two years of the pandemic, according to a new report from the Department of Finance.

    The national debt stood at €237 billion at the end of last year.

    This equates to €47,233 for every person in the country and is described in the report as 'one of the highest in the world.'

    We cannot build a childrens hospital - which is set to now cost in excess of €2bn after being initially projected five years ago to cost barely a quarter of that - without being the laughing stock of the world, how could we take over somewhere else?

    Your man Kielty was right. A lot would have to change for a UI to come about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Have you any statistics regarding COI schools? Are you sure that's not just in your local area. I know of at least a dozen COI primary schools and none are fee paying.

    I can only think of 3 secondary schools. One has no fees and of the three I suspect is the only one who's pupils are still majority coi.


    The other two are historically elite one so extremely and while nominally COI I would suspect are today a majority non religious/Catholic. To use these schools as some sort of a benchmarking norm is ridiculous.

    I lived around the corner and though nominally catholic went to the non fee paying COI secondary school. After the massive societal changes in Ireland in the last 30 years most of my COI friends kids go to whatever school is closest though there are a few who chose the COI school but the reasoning has always been that everyone in the family since great grandparents has gone and is nothing to do with any religious or cultural divide. It's more they go there for love of hokey than anything else.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Yes Balmed out, there are 25 C of I secondary schools in the state and most have to charge fees, average €3800 a year, due to the State’s policy of providing them with lower levels of funding compared with most “free” secondary schools. 88% of schools in the state have Catholic patrons. Compared with the free sector, fee charging schools receive fewer State-funded teachers, reduced guidance and counselling allocations and do not automatically receive Covid-19 supports. Teachers are allocated at a ratio of one for every 19 students in “free” secondary schools compared with one for every 23 students in the fee-charging sector. The policy was first introduced as a cost-cutting measure in 2009 and has been extended to other areas. Teachers’ salaries in the fee-charging schools are paid by the State. They do not receive any other state funding. The 25,600 pupils in the fee-charging system have to be taught. Whether they are in fee charging schools or the free education sector, the State will be paying the teachers’ salaries. The fees that many protestant parents pay to educacate their kids in a school of their own ethos go towards paying electricity, heating, stationary, repairs, insurance, maintenance, computers etc, where as most Catholic parents who get their kids educated - in a school of their ethos - get "free" education / those costs paid.

    As Kielty himself might joke, bad enough having to learn Irish in order to get in to UCD or UCC , or to get a job, without having to pay for it. He said some people chanting "Up the RA" does not help, he was right about that too. Hard for some moderates up North to be enthusiastic about joing a country when the ladies soccer team of same country wraps themselves in tricolours and chants up the RA. What does it say about our education system that it produces a generation of youngsters unaware of IRA atrocities in the not too distant past?

    Post edited by Francis McM on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,716 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    Ah I misunderstood you. So all fee paying and non fee paying schools are treated the same regardless of religious denomination but whereby parents wish to send their children to a school of a particular denomination the closest choice may be fee paying? Wealthy Dublin suburbs where kids get the best education in the state can have the same complaint.

    If the community a school serves would rather to open it to all and become a public school I don't think there's anything to stop it?

    Not such a big deal surely more and more parents, probably a large majority would rather church involvement in all schools removed and it's pretty limited at second level anyway.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The First Minister and Deputy First Minister posts must be occupied by the two largest political groupings. I do not believe there is any reason the "Other" grouping could not be one of these.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    For clarity:

    You can read more details about this process in the Northern Ireland Act 1998; see especially Sections 16A and 16C.

    Essentially, after an election, the First Minister will normally come from within the largest designation (Nationalist, Unionist, or Other), nominated by the largest party within that designation. The deputy First Minister will then come from within the second largest designation (Nationalist, Unionist, or Other), nominated by the largest party within that designation.

    One caveat in the legislation – not mentioned in the St Andrews Agreement – is that if the overall largest party in the Assembly is not within the largest designation, it will still get to nominate the First Minister, and then the largest party within the largest designation will nominate the deputy First Minister. This provision is detailed in Section 16C(6) and means that the largest party after an election chooses the First Minister no matter the size of their designation.

    So far, the largest party has always been part of the largest designation.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Unionists, by the time the vote for unity happens, will be less than 50% in the North (otherwise it would be a vote against unity, right?), and around 10% nationally.

    Is that clear enough?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    because Im aware of other people's views?

    I think that speaks more of your narrow mindedness than mine

    there ARE violently anti United Ireland folk in NI. I am not one of them.

    But IF a UI goes ahead, how are the Irish people going to make THEM feel welcome? Because no-one sane wants a return to the troubles. and there are people who would see it as their right to show Dublin what it felt like to be in Belfast in 1972.

    No-one sane wants that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    Partition, and that lack of welcome led to alienation of republicans, which led to the troubles, with thousands killed. Hardly getting on with it and making the most of it.

    it was not a good time to live in Northern Ireland.

    I lived through it and, like Keilty, had family members killed by the IRA.

    On their 1st night in Belfast, Senator George Mitchell, Canadian General John de Chastelain and former Finnish Prime Minister Harri Holkeri had dinner in the bar of Nick's Warehouse, where I was manager. I wished them luck and told them that they would hear a lot of loud people.... but to be careful and listen for the quiet majority who wanted peace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,049 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    No because of the language you use. The aggressive tone you wrote the OP with.

    Even the aggressive and vague title with added "......". It's all CA/IMHO 101 stuff.

    Even now you are trying to insinuate that most of us here are not "sane" because down south we are not willing to make you welcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    the banks and others advertise "British contact centres" because folk want reassured that they wont be talking to India or Indonesia where there is a massive issue with language.

    its not about politics, its about speaking English. And its easier to say " all our call centres are British" than it is to say "All our call centres have folk that speak really good English, but dont worry, none of them are in the far east....."

    and sorry, if you look at a map, even one printed in Dublin, Ireland and the UK are indeed different countries.

    as to spending time there? Of course I do! Donegal, Sligo, Dublin and Tralee all in the last couple of years. But then I'm a moderate. Its the hard liners who need persuaded and welcomed



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    10% on the whole Island? fair enough. clearer now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,391 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    So I think you need to manage your expectations somewhat


    You ask how the Irish people can make the hardline unionist community feel welcome. This is basically an impossible task because to them the concept of a united Ireland represents a total loss to them

    Currently no unionist parties will engage in any discussion of a united Ireland because to them if they start talking about it then it legitimises the concept. I see their point, childish as it is, for example BBC were often forced to have climate change deniers on because they had to show a "balanced" debate

    Frankly I think the Irish government strategy for the hardliners is to wait until most of them are dead or too old to cause trouble. In general younger people in NI seem to be less concerned with sectarian division and are more interested in peace

    I think if the case exists that NI would be more prosperous in a united Ireland, and that there won't be some sort of cultural genocide of the unionist identity then that will win over the majority of the moderate unionist community

    This in turn would deprive the hardline unionists of their support base and would hopefully stop any violence

    I don't think anyone realistically thinks that people are going to stop shouting "up the ra" in the republic. Equally I don't think the orange order will be disbanded or bonfire night will be outlawed in the event of unification

    I mean there's still folks who think the confederacy should have won the American civil war, but so far that hasn't led to another war. People will always have opposing views on how a conflict should have ended, but that doesn't automatically mean those views will boil over into violence

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'Not welcome'??? They were in their own land. They tried to get on with it for 60 years years but then got beaten off the streest and killed for wanting equality in their own land.

    I lived through it too and lost family members. Anyone looking at the conflict/war knew the majority wanted peace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The majority wanted peace. Even when the troubles were ar their worst, in the seventies, Sinn Fein had little or no support on either side of the border, no MPs or TDs then. The majority voted for parties who condemned the terrorists - terrorists like the PIRA and INLA and UVF. Most people were law abiding citizens, paid their taxes, supported the government forces of law and order.

    The Amazing Rasin says it is basically an impossible task for the Irish people to make the unionist community feel welcome. Well, as Mr. Kielty says, stopping chanting UP the RA would be a start, and stopping the glorification of the RA capaign and the rewriting of history. The vast majority of people on the island were against the RA campaign, do not and did not condone the murders of Gardai, the people behind Enniskillen, Le Mons, Bloody Friday etc. The young people in our schools need to be told that instead of singing and chanting UP the RA.

    Post edited by Francis McM on


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There was the small matter that SF were censored and proscribed and were not really running as an effective, normal political party. I showed before that their support rose electorally from the late 80's through the 90's up until the GFA agreement and we know what happened when that was achieved.

    Otherwise I agree. The huge majority wanted peace, but not peace at the expense of things returning to the sectarian bigoted gerrymandered state that caused the place to go up in flames to begin with. That should not be ignored either. That battle is going on to this very day with Unionists desparately trying to restore their veto. SF got rewarded by the electorate for not capitulating on that and insisting on equality and parity of esteem.

    To somebody who never supported the IRA or violence that is a simple fact despite the moaning from some that the SDLP deserved the support/reward. The electorate there have been very clear.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,743 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Most people were law abiding citizens, paid their taxes, supported the government forces of law and order.

    Are you talking about nationalists in NI here because my memory is that the "government forces of law and order" were generally not supported by nationalists given the various atrocities and criminal acts carried out by or in conjunction with those forces. Maybe your memory is different to mine though and you can provide us with a better insight here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    happened on both sides.

    Both sides had a prisoner mentality,

    both sides had militants who killed the others.

    and both sides were at fault.

    wouldn't it be great.... if there IS to be a UI...... that those mistakes weren't repeated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    you're right.

    because of a tiny minority of bad apples in the security services who did indeed collude with loyalist terrorists, absolutely the Nationalist community did not trust the RUC, UDR or British Army. to be fair, understandably so.

    there is much less fear/mistrust of "the other side" now that we've stopped killing each-other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What mistakes did Nationalists make? They didn't change the voting system after partition to set up a sectarian bigoted statelet that inevitably went up in flames.

    Nobody is proposing to do that again in a UI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Not all nationalists, but a small percentage supported robbing banks, shooting Gardai etc here and up north supported those who committed Enniskillen, Le Mons, Darkley, Bloody Friday etc. The majority though voted for parties who condemned the PIRA, INLA etc like FF, FG, Labour, the SDLP etc. The terrorist campaign failed in its objective to get the "Brits Out" and weapons and explosives were destroyed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So what is your explanation for the electorate there again and again rewarding SF with their vote?

    Is it to demean them with the 'they know not what they do' explanation we hear around here?



This discussion has been closed.
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