So make me welcome.......

Francis McM · 25-01-2023 6:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120157029#Comment_120157029

What does "singing provocatively about the IRA and our own struggle for freedom must stop" mean? Would you classify the singing of some / most / all of the Wolf Tones for example to be prohibited in a new UI?

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2023 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120157142#Comment_120157142

There is nothing illegal about singing a song. Singing a song is not in itself a provocative act. It is however if it is done to taunt and hurt. Just like throwing a stone in a field somewhere...anyone can throw a stone but it becomes a different act if you throw it at somebody with the intention to do harm.

There should be laws around deliberately taunting and provocative behaviour intended to troll or hurt. And those laws need to be enforced.

And again I contend that this needs to happen whether there is a UI or not.

the_amazing_raisin · 25-01-2023 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120154915#Comment_120154915

That is not what I said. I said to an extent you can't make the hardline unionist community happy with a united Ireland. I did not say it's impossible to make unionists feel welcome

There's different degrees of unionism, because you can't make the most extreme element happy doesn't mean you don't try to make the more moderate elements happy. My argument is that there's a lot of people in NI who consider themselves unionists but may support a united Ireland if they felt it represents a better future for them than the UK

For the hardliners, there's probably no amount of concessions that would make them "happy" but there is likely a solution which could be tolerable enough to prevent violence

I can't see hat exactly is your expectation to feel welcome by the Republic? You can't reasonably expect the phrase "up the ra" to get banned? Should we ban bonfire night and orange marches in the process?

People will still be entitled to their opinions and freedom of expression and I think a few folks are going to still say "up the ra" from time to time, just as some other folks are going to loudly profess that things were better in ten UK

I'm also curious what instances of history being rewritten you're referring to? As I recall the Irish history curriculum isn't tremendously positive on the IRB, focusing more on the Irish Citizen Army and Cumman na mBan. The bit around the troubles seemed to portray both sides being at fault

Perhaps it was the school I went to but I don't recall the IRA being glorified in any way. I know a couple of schools which had some teachers that were described as "ra heads" but I don't think it's as widespread an issue as you're making it out to be

I actually think the Irish government and school system takes quite a balanced view of history, particularly compared to many nations that have had more expansionist tendancies.

And no I'm not referring solely to the UK, other nations like France, Germany and the US do it as well. It's always interesting to note that in those nations there's often a military museum about how many countries they invaded. Whereas in Dublin there's a museum about Irish emigration and how they've found success in other countries and how it has benefitted Ireland

standardg60 · 25-01-2023 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120157142#Comment_120157142

How do you feel yourself about whether you'd be welcome in a UI?

Tbh i think it's a bit weird that you'd continually focus in on a soccer team, hardly bastions of IQ, to form a view that you wouldn't be. And if you listen to the video most of them are actually saying 'up their arse' which tells me they didn't even know the song. I could reference lads singing about Michaela McAreevy to form the view that all Unionists are hateful bigots but i know that's not the case.

The OP asked a question about them being made feel welcome, but then revealed they already had been by visiting here several times, so it wasn't actually about them but about persuading the hardliners. If moderates like the OP can't persuade their fellow Unionists to travel the 30 miles to figure it out for themselves then there's not much hope for us to do so.

A perfect example of the stubborn ignorance of hardline Unionists of the people they share the island with was Jamie Bryson mistaking a Munster flag for a balaclava at a match. The fact he was able to have a laugh about it once it was pointed out was progress in itself.

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2023 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158183#Comment_120158183

Bryson had little choice but to laugh at himself.

It's also worth noting that in order to be offended by the girls singing in a dressing room you had to go looking for the video and click on it. They didn't rock up outside somebody's house or place of worship or to a community interface to sing it.

Count Dracula · 25-01-2023 11:28pm

To be honest Op I would not be getting yourself worked up about having to deal with bland republicans who somehow identify their Irishness with the singing of rebel songs and dressing like fishermen from the last century?

The entire concept of citizenship and fraternity, under a republic, is the coming together of the people who encompass a collective which wants to support each other and share the benefits of working and living together in a fair and just society. That is what democracy and freedom are about.

Amongst every ideal or movement you will find people who use it, or champion it, to be what they alone interpret it as? I would tend to not get overly involved in how contemporary republicans seem to assume it is some sort of movement that is destined for change, once they get what they want and finally have the keys to Oirish Utopia?

I would hope that when the island eventually elects to form a complete 32 county, self determined existence, it doesn't fall into the trap of doing everything differently or worse still, reactively to what the UK is doing? It makes zero sense to do this. Irish republicanism shouldn't have to constantly identify with being anti British for starters? We should be looking to keep good relations with Britan. Not blowing flute about a 1000 years of struggle against the evil Saxons over the sea? Who wants to be part of a movement that has to identify and clarify its existence by constantly dragging up its hatred of their next door neighbour?

I would like to think that a unification would offer all people of the island to finally move forward in its' own unique way. I would certainly hate to see it degenerate into a pointless war zone like before? Why do we have this obsession with having it both ways? I also would be fuming to see it ends up implementing all sorts of stupid shight, dreamt up by crazies thinking they can start scheming their future despite the aspirations of anyone else?

You should look ahead and beyond the fear of your lifestyle being saturated by fanatics looking to fulfill their destiny? The last thing the country needs at that point is a leadership and citizenship that jettisoned its' own popularity on unattainable lies and straw clutching spoof? No one deserves that.

I would like to think that a United Ireland will bring a positive effect and influence on its peoples' lives and not some dysfunctional phuckfest that needs constant litigation and manipulation by whoever thinks they are in charge? Who wants to live their lives there?

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2023 11:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158577#Comment_120158577

The way things are going at the moment the 'most anti British' contingent on the island will likely be belligerent Unionists/Loyalists wittering on about being 'subjugated by pernicious' forces, welcomed no doubt by partitionists bitter about losing the referendum.

The majority will get on with the relationship we have had with the neighbouring island forever, freely intermingling and residing in both jurisdictions, sharing our cultures and living and working in both and welcoming those who want to live in that environment.

Count Dracula · 26-01-2023 12:19am

Plenty of unionists are well aware of how incredulous their existence is when compared with Britain. I think it gets underestimated by nationalists that there does exist an affinity by Loyalists to Ireland, they live here for starters. Yes they do identify with being " British " but i have never assumed that they are living in rejection of the island and their lives within it.

My understanding of unionism is that it has manifested itself through its' opposition to the politics of the movement of republicanism and irish nationalism. It was born out of that the Espirt of " no surrender " and so on. That for me is what unites unionism as a movement, it is in itself an opposing proclamation to the change which Republicanism threatens. I am directly referring to their enjoyed ownership rights and cliques which were one of the main catalysts for the civil rights movement in the 60's.

But I don't imagine that it depletes their love of their country, as a place in Ireland. Unionists starved during both the great famines just like the rest of the country, that is often ignored? It is a common assumption amongst people that unionism is pro British, it certainly is, but it also exists as a vehicle to oppose dynamic fundamental change threatened by a Republic.

Plenty of unionists representing Ireland in sports and the likes. Plenty of brilliant musicians who are from unionist backgrounds, artists, writers etc. Just because the marching season generates this image of bonfires and flag waving etc does not mean that every unionist is some sort of screaming red faced bigot, simply not the case. Lots of unionists working in the Free State, living their lives , etc. They will be sending train loads down to the Rugby next week, holidaying in Galway and Waterford, reading the Irish independent, laughing at Tommie Tiernan, thinking Rosanna Davison is a ride...

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 12:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158805#Comment_120158805

You are referring to moderate and democratic 'Unionists' who are the vast majority and are welcomed all the time here. I just finished listening to their submissions to the Shared Island Unit given willingly and enthusiastically in Dublin.

The point was about 'belligerent Unionists/Loyalists'. Those who vehemently resist being called Irish and denigrate and demean Irish culture. Even though Unionists and Republicans share many aspects of Irish culture (and also aspects of British culture)

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158840#Comment_120158840

Paisley saw himself primarily as an Ulsterman. However, despite his hostility towards Irish republicanism and the Republic of Ireland, he also saw himself as an Irishman and said that "you cannot be an Ulsterman without being an Irishman". Even regiments in the British army like the RIR ( Royal Irish Regiment) , Irish Guards etc have an Irish element in their identity. Their motto Faugh a Ballagh is a battle cry of Irish origin, meaning "clear the way". Each year they wear the shamrock etc.

In reciprication, we can and do welcome them and make them feel at home by singing and chanting "UP the RA". Sure the RA were a great bunch of lads, and singing about the lads, from our national soccer team down to work groups in pubs etc, is a great way to make everyone feel included. OK, so the RA killed more Irish Catholics than the UDA and UVF put together, as well as about 790 protestants and about 570 not from N.I. ( inc some Gardai etc) but shure they meant well and mistakes happen in "war".

In the event of a UI, we will encourage the moderate and democratic unionists to learn and speak Irish by making it compulsory at school and to get in to third level and to get government jobs. (it happened before). We will name streets, landmarks, football pitches, railway stations etc after our "freedom fighters" (one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist). It happened before. We can have a system where healthcare will be more expensive and less efficient than in UK. It happened before. We can have a system where people in the majority faith can have their secondary school education free in a school of their ethos but most people of the minority religion usually have to pay school fees (average €3800 ) if they want to attend a school of their own ethos, as their schools do not get as much government grants. It happened before. We can kill dozens of spies / people who were loyal to the crown, masquerading as civilians. Maybe burn a few houses. It happened before.

And you really think all moderate Unionists - even those of a catholic persuasion, who may have government jobs and feel quite secure and happy and safe to remain part of the UK, still a G7 country and the sixth-largest national economy in the world, measured by nominal gross domestic product (GDP), and who have the NHS, cheaper cars, cheaper housing etc- are going to be or feel welcome? Fool them once, fool on you. Fool them twice, fool on them.

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159843#Comment_120159843

I think anyone who respects democracy and takes part in that democracy will be welcome.

Not interested in those who seek out offence on whatever side they are on, like clicking on videos and listening to bands like the Wolfe Tones or a UVF one. I can find plenty of that in both jurisdictions as it is if I want to.

What we need, even now is a conversation on how we reconcile two, or more, different views of history and what crosses the line in commemorating and celebrating those two, or more, different views.

You are full to the brim of the problems on one side, what are YOUR solutions here.

P.S. Paisley was far from a moderate but became closer to one as NI moved towards equality and parity of esteem. If he could do it I'd be optimistic that many more will as well. Similarly with those in the Republican movement who changed over the course of the conflict/war and after it ended.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120159843#Comment_120159843

Gosh, I'd love to know the mental gymnastics you went through to get to those conclusions 😉

I'm not sure I'd look for much positive sentiment in the DUP, a far right Christian conservative party which believes homosexuality is a sickness and abortions should be outlawed. Their membership may consider themselves Irish or British as much as they want, it doesn't excuse their actions

Equally I don't see any nobility in the British army allowing the Paddy's to have their battle cry and wear shamrocks while perpetrating the government sanctioned murder of civilians

Personally I don't see any difference between this and the murder of civilians by an illegal paramilitary organisation

So there's blood on both sides, and there's a few clowns on both sides who still wrap themselves in glory while pointing out the horrors unleashed by the opposing side

Thankfully those clowns seem to be in an ever shrinking minority

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160058#Comment_120160058

If you do not see any difference between a state army - the state army of a democratically elected, western, G7 country - and the murder of civilians by an illegal paramilitary organisation, then that says it all. As the Americans discovered after 9/11, there was no difference between the twin towers attack and bombing shopping centres and pubs in the UK, only scale. Oh, and no national ladies football team has chanted "Up the 9/11 bombers."

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160136#Comment_120160136

I don't see the difference between state sanctioned violence against civilians and illegal violence against civilians, regardless of whether the state in question is a democracy or a G7 nation

You have consistently failed to demonstrate any kind of point to your argument and instead you just raise false equivalency everywhere

You keep raising the Irish LGFA team shouting "up the ra" as some sign that the Irish nation sponsors terrorism. This is in spite of the fact that the Irish government condemned it and the team was made to publicly apologise

You've mentioned history being rewritten to favour the IRA, but fail to provide examples

You've mentioned IRA members being glorified in the Republic, but again have failed to provide examples

Please feel free to fill in some of the blanks here

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 2:25pm

I have never said the Irish nation sponsors terrorism. Actually, state policy here, as it was in the neighbouring jurisdiction, was to jail convicted terrorists. Yes IRA members have been glorified in the republic, I gave examples eg train stations amed after them, pictures on walls. In the GAA it is not unknown to have grounds named after them etc. However some people clearly need to be educated properly - for example the ladies national football team, who thought it was ok to chant UP the RA. What an example, and what were those girls taught in school?

Regarding the two Irish regiments in the British army mentioned - the RIR and Irish Guards - you mention the "perpetrating the government sanctioned murder of civilians". Many Irish people of all faiths and none, from both sides of the border, haved served without problem in these regiments, do you include them of perpetrating the government sanctioned murder of civilians. One regiment was formed in 1900, the other was formed in 1992, do you think it was always their mission and prime objective to participate in the "government sanctioned murder of civilians."

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120160434#Comment_120160434

I am referring to the British military as a whole sanctioning the murder of civilians. They have done this at an organisational level for centuries, both in Ireland and in many other countries, including as recently as Afghanistan and Iraq

For this reason I do not glorify the British military or any of its formations. One regiment may have a worse record than another, however they do not have the luxury of deciding which orders to follow and so I feel they are equally culpable in crimes that the British army has committed

I do agree that individual soldiers accomplishments and heroism is something to be celebrated and I acknowledge that many Irishmen have served in the British military, some with distinction and I don't think that should be denied or diminished

I believe the train stations named after Irish rebels are because they were executed by the British army after the 1916 rising following a very brief military trial. I imagine even the most ardent unionist would be forced to admit this would not represent a fair judicial system

I certainly don't think anyone is seriously proposing to name a train station after the dissident republicans or new IRA members

I can't really comment on the GAA, never had any interest in any of the sports. However it is an organisation which was historically associated with Irish rebellion and was outlawed by the British government

I don't disagree that some of its members still identify with this, however I believe they are very much in the minority. As was pointed out the LGFA team's chanting was generally not well received by the Irish public

So I still don't see how Ireland is an "unwelcoming" nation towards Northern Irish people.

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 4:44pm

In the event of a UI, you cannot see how Ireland could be an "unwelcoming" nation towards Northern Irish people? Do you remember the riots which resulted ( by hardline republicans) when some Northern Ireland victims tried to hold a Victims parade in O'Connell st in 2006? They got a great welcome, and stones through the windows of their buses on the way back north.

It just goes to show a UI will not happen for a few generations at least.

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161181#Comment_120161181

Willie Frazer’s ( who was a part of The Glenane gang) outfit who threatened to hold up a picture of one of those who allegedly colluded with the British to bomb Dublin?

That provocative shambles got the response it wanted to get.

That provocation will never be welcome anywhere and rightly so.

Moderate Unionism wanted nothing to do with Willie and his group.

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 6:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161360#Comment_120161360

Not sure if you have all your facts right in a fair way there, but I would not expect you to. Republicans who attacked poor Charlie Bird did not get their facts right then either: he said "It was all over in seconds but they just repeatedly punched me in the face with their fists and I just ran..." He says he was described as “an orange bastard” by his attackers.

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161568#Comment_120161568

Again, you try to posit a general theory based on the actions of a few.

Francis McM · 26-01-2023 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161603#Comment_120161603

Not a theory, just facts, poor Charlie was physically assaulted that day and called "an Orange Bastard". The other hundreds of victims - many of whom had their relatives murdered in the troubles - were attacked because they were perceived to be "Orange Bastards" too.

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 6:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161668#Comment_120161668

Because the 'march' did the exact thing that we are talking about and which you think is only engaged in by one side. They provoked and taunted and wanted the reaction they got.

Go read about the lead up to the march and the history of Willie and Willies organisation.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161181#Comment_120161181

You're describing an event from 17 years ago like it's current affairs

To be honest I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for the parade organisers since they took a very one sided view of the troubles

IMO the event itself was designed as a provocation, so I'm not sure it's fair to use it as an example

Nevertheless, I'll agree the hardline nationalists jumped on it and managed to get a lot of people to start a riot. The Irish government definitely dropped the ball by not having extra security and stopping the spread of misinformation

Unfortunately I think it's safe to say that a lot of the people involved on the Irish side were scumbags who found an excuse for a fight

As I said however, you're using past behaviour to make a very big assumption about the future, which I don't think is fair. Keep in mind for example there will be people voting in the next elections who were too young to remember that particular incident

You do make a good point which is that extremists on both sides will likely attempt similar provocations in the lead up and after any unification vote.

Any unified government would have to be very careful to ensure this is kept to a minimum, however the problem for them is that it's something of a no win scenario. Taking the example above, if the Irish government had refused to grant a license for the parade then try would be accused of censoring the debate on unionist civilian deaths

The way out of this is through education and pursuing open and honest debate over the future of the island. Past issues need to be addressed for sure but they shouldn't be used as ammunition for extremists to spread more hatred

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 7:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161866#Comment_120161866

'Past issues' will be forgotten about if the democratically elected, western, G7 government has it's way.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120161921#Comment_120161921

That is one of the the reasons why I said the British military has committed atrocities that were sanctioned by the government

Although they go through governments faster than I go through socks, so there'll probably forget about that idea soon

I'm not going to say the Irish government is great (it isn't) but at least they can form a government, or get a budget through without causing an economic collapse

blanch152 · 26-01-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120158805#Comment_120158805

Irish republicans cannot help themselves by being anti-British.

They were rabidly anti-EU because we joined the same time as the UK, up until 2016 when the UK decided to leave. Now they are great Europeans. Most republicans can't make up their mind on anything unless they are told what to say, or it is clearly anti-British.

Look at the way that Sinn Fein supported Russia up until they drove their tanks into the Ukraine (though their MEP still seems to support Russia), all because the UK were the strongest opposition within the EU to Russia.

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162002#Comment_120162002

Despite the antics of the British government and at times the Irish one, over 100,000 British nationals live happily in Ireland and enjoy cordial relations and vice versa. Not to mention all the other nationalities.

Despite political shenanigans we are intelligent enough as a race to separate politics from ordinary decent people and welcome them as we would like to be welcomed.

The far right would like if that wasn't the case but it still is.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-01-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162582#Comment_120162582

I agree with you there, I think politics in Ireland are a lot less divisive than some other countries. In the US people who vote Democrat often won't even speak or socialise with Republican voters and vice versa

I feel the jury is a out on the UK and partisan politics. Historically the main parties tried to maintain broad appeal, however in the last decade their society seems a lot more divided along political lines than it was before

NI by contrast is becoming less partisan IMO with the rise of the Alliance party

Honestly if there is ever a united Ireland, presumably the vast majority of people will view this as a very positive development. After all, there has to be a referendum on both sides of the border for it to happen, and it's highly unlikely they would ever try it unless the results were a pretty sure thing

People generally don't vote for the option that makes them more miserable in a referendum. And no, brexit doesn't count because people believed it would turn out well. Turns out it's a bad idea to listen to liars and charlatans

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2023 10:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120162651#Comment_120162651

The prospect of referendums is for another thread but you are right...every single political party here will sell it as a positive and that will result in an enhanced atmosphere of welcome.

What will be on offer is an outward looking inclusive country at the heart of Europe and the EU. That will be an attractive proposition especially for younger people.

Seth Brundle · 26-01-2023 10:50pm

Ok, yet a other thread has been hijacked into yet another debate about SF & the IRA.

At this point, I'm fed up reading the same old tit-for-tat bickering from the same posters.

I'm closing this thread because I cannot see a reason why anyone (apart from the usual posters and their new-found compadres) would want it to continue!

So make me welcome.......

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