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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,690 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I don’t believe so. Given the constraints of the thread I will thread lightly.

    I will say stereotypical Employment based on Gender is a social construct.

    But gender itself is a given not a construct. And to alter it means to artificially create a manufactured ‘other’ as an individual does not accept their given gender. For whatever reason.

    But the problem for that to really succeed means everyone has to at least appear to buy into the trans individuals new belief.

    As if one single other individual overtly does not buy into the trans persons new reality, the belief is shattered otherwise.

    The whole construct is based on whether the whole of the general population buy into it.

    Burke does not, as he believes to do so is an infringement on his own identity- his religion.

    But unlike the trans individual Burke does not need outside affirmation for his beliefs.

    Religious in his case, he just does not want to be dictated to that he has to believe in/buy into something that goes against his own beliefs and identity.

    So there is no middle ground in the argument for him or I assume the trans student.

    It is the competing of two ideologies both wrapped in perceived personal identity.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭lmao10


    The same kinds of people are admirers of him or his family while I would imagine most normal people are disgusted by their conduct and see them as the laughing stock of the land.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    There's nothing stopping anyone from using an accessible toilet at any time. They're required and designed to be accessible to people with mobility or other needs, not exclusive to any particular group. You'll often find places (not schools, obviously) where the baby-changing facilities are in the accessible toilet. People with sensory issues might prefer to use them as they're quieter and more private. There would be no need to remove the sign from the door, the "wheelchair" sign is just there to signify that the toilet has accessible accommodations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Thats a completely inaccurate revisionist account of historical treatment of gay people and a real lack of understanding about LGBT identities

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Are there many disabled trans people in schools?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25 AIDAN8319


    I dont see why they'd be disgusted, annoyed possibly. His point is clear in that he doesn't recognize the gender identity of the child because it doesn't align with his religious beliefs. This whole thing would be very interesting if it was a Muslim who was refusing to call the teenager 'they'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    No I don't. And do you really think a lot of Irish people would agree that someone who gets fired for verbally abusing his boss should ignore it when he is suspended, and then pretend like the courts don't have jurisdiction over them when his employer gets a court order to stop him from showing up should be able to get away with it? Because that is what his stance is.

    He could've made it about something else if he wanted to. If he had gone through the proper procedures. But he chose not to do that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover




  • Registered Users Posts: 856 ✭✭✭gk5000


    There is nothing to admire while he does not obey the law. It is pure stupidity. He may have garnered some respect if he has operated within the law but he has chosen not to. The law and courts are whether you like it or not a cornerstone to our state and our democracy,

    It may have been ok to ignore the law prior to 1921 when the law was imposed by a foreign power, but now it is OUR law. The state would cease to exist if people could choose which laws the shall abide by - sure next someone could decide to drive on the right hand side of the road, or that they were entitled to live in your house , or lie with your wife.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What? Are you saying people with disabilities cant use disability toilets if trans people use them? How bizarre. This toilet obsession is so weird and off the wall and bizarre and absurd really. Trans women have been using womens toilets for decades with no big **** deal. Like I swear some people want to put genital checking police on the front of every bloody toilet door in the country. The sky hasnt fallen in since trans people were legally recognised in 2015. There hast been a huge bloody toilet assault increase. Its pure drivel and nonsense to be obsessed about toilets.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pretending to miss the point again? Its getting boring.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No. The fact some peoples beliefs that trans people dont exist doesnt mean they dont exist. All it means is some people hold that belief. Trans people exist physically and legally.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Oh look. Another poster pretending Enochs behaviour didnt happen. How original. 🙄 Do your own research on it. 🤣

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,406 ✭✭✭Tork


    When people protest or go on strike, it's accepted that at some point the warring parties will sit down at a table and work out a compromise. The end agreement might not make everybody happy but it's how these things come to a close. Enoch has well and truly has made his point but he's never going to get what he wants. He just wants his old job back and even if the school goes ahead and recruits a replacement for him, he's still going to stand outside day after day. He has gone way too far with his protest and I can't see any way back for him.

    He's used to standing around protesting. He was mentioned in an Irish Times article from 2010, where Kathy Sheridan spoke to people protesting outside the Dáil after it had closed for its summer recess.

    The placard holders are members of one big family. When challenged by a pinstriped cyclist, 21-year-old Enoch Burke takes him on. “Well, where does Aids begin?” asks Enoch, following up with HIV figures from St James’s Hospital, to “prove” that homosexuals started it. “God help you,” says the cyclist mournfully. Enoch, who declined a place in medicine at University College Galway, is one of 10 children – all with biblical names – of Sean and Martina Burke from Castlebar, Co Mayo.

    His brother Isaac is in third-year science in Galway. Esther is working for her HDip. Ammi hopes to study languages. The family belong to no particular sect. “We’re just a Christian church,” says Martina.

    How do she and Sean find the time to support their large family and stand all day outside Leinster House? Sean, she says, was a qualified electrician, “and does a lot of different things now”. Martina, a qualified secondary teacher, “still does private tuition” for exam students. “Of course there are a thousand other things we could be doing. I could cry coming up,” she says, “but there’s a lot of unrest in the country, and the politicians are not representing the people.”

    The Bible sustains them on the three- to four-hour drive from Castlebar two or three days a week, before they stand tall with their placards for up to nine hours a day.

    Post edited by Tork on


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    There's a few on this thread who come across as the mirror image of the Burkes. What point did I miss now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭Jaffa3000


    I didn't mention anything about how gay people were historically treated.

    Considering transgender ideology is totally unscientific in every way, no its not.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    He won’t voluntarily pay the fines, but that does not mean that family assets won’t be ceased. There is a very big difference between breaking the law and disrespecting the judicial system. When you do that you give the judiciary a lot of rope to hang you with.

    In a way I pity the young man because his career aspirations are at an end before they began and he has now boxed himself in with no game plan. A smarter person would cut their losses, write a book and head of on a speaking tour of the Christian belt in the US to collect some cash. But not him, he’ll grow old on that hill and in time most people will not even remember why he is up there - just some old dosser faffing about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭Jaffa3000


    Considering a woman is an adult human female, do explain how it is possible for a woman to become a man (or vice versa)? No amount of drugs of surgeries ever makes it possible. That is without getting into the total nonsense that is non-binary



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    If you mean the Burke's family assets, how can they be touched? Enoch's assets can be taken, if he has any, but his parents aren't liable to pay his fines etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    You not understanding the science isn't the same as it not existing. You should look into educating yourself. Pretending that something isn't true because it makes you uncomfortable is never a good choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭Jaffa3000


    No such science which backs you does exist. As I said, no amount of drugs will ever make a man a woman



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Remember it's not what he wants to call the teenager which is the issue, it's that he wants the whole school to call the teenager what he wants. That's the issue. So his religion is irrelevant here, and so would anyone else trying to do what he's trying to do.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The point that disabled people have been managing in public spaces without the need for gender defined disabled toilets for decades.

    But whatever, I can't be bothered trying to engage with your kind of disingenuous posting style, so I guess I'll just ignore you from here on.

    You've still dodged answering the question I asked you several times about children who are born intersex, too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,787 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Can't believe they have 10 kids, I thought it was only 3 or 4. Really going down the Phelps road there and in many other respects of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    Again you being ignorant of the science isn't the same is it not existing. There isn't really any point in trying to discuss it with you until you educate yourself. And this is beside the point of the thread anyway.

    A former teacher was verbally abusive and physically aggressive towards his employer. That employee was suspended and a disciplinary hearing was scheduled. He refused to acknowledge the suspension, so the school petitioned the court to require that he stop coming on to school property. The court agreed with them and granted their request. The teacher decided to ignore the court and continued to attend the school, so he was arrested and jailed for contempt. He spent more than 100 days in jail, even though he could have been released any time he wanted by simply agreeing to not continue attending the school he was suspended from. He was released when the school went on winter break and then resumed attending the school after classes resumed. The school didn't petition to have him returned to jail as they wanted to be able to hold their disciplinary hearing. They did so, which resulted in the teacher being fired. Since then he has continued to attend the school that formerly employed him despite being ordered by the court to not do so.

    Unless his religious beliefs include needing to be abusive towards people who don't do what he wants, or being able to ignore the courts, his religious rights have not been infringed upon at any point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You're right in theory. In practice, there is no school that will have policies acceptable to him.

    Probably something like this, which removes the traditional space for bullying of weaker kids.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,360 ✭✭✭lolie


    Enoch: Yes

    Child: What time are "they" picking you up at?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    You're missing the point. He wants his job back AND he eants the school to change all its policies and the request in question to adhere to his beliefs.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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