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Weird banking error and possible GDPR breach?

  • 28-01-2023 3:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    Hi, any help or comment on the above would really be great. So to cut a long story short, My dad went into the bank to withdraw money/ set up a bank draft. However, due to an error (the bank have yet to explain how this happened) my dad was able to access my personal account, and withdraw a large some of money from it. Now, this is where the story gets weird, he thought he was taking it out of his account, he and I have the same name. Being elderly he had very few details on him going into the bank, the cashier trying to be helpful was able to access my personal and savings account, then set up the draft, the money was taken and off my dad went. However, my dad noticed an error on the draft (made out to wrong person) and returned to the bank later to fix the error on the draft. In short, my account was accessed again.

    This happened a few weeks ago and the error was only spotted by me now, when I noticed the large some of money missing. In the meantime I happened to be speaking with my dad and he noticed the sum of money being the same as what he had withdrawn a few weeks earlier. Sure enough, he had his draft reciept and guess what, it was my IBAN written on it.

    So my question is, does this constitute a breach of my personal data? The details of my account were discussed by the casheir and my dad, including amounts of money in the account, etc. The bank have been very slow to respond and have stated it was just a simple error on the bank cashiers part.



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭phildub


    It was just a simple error in the cashiers part, but also a massive gdpr breach! They should have contacted you to inform you of the breach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    No such contact, I had to discover the breach myself and I also had to do the investiagtion work so to speak. I was able to identify what happened mych quicker than they could. I have spoken with the branch, they seemed to suggest it wasnt much of an issue. In fact it was a strange phone conversation (something along the lines of, sher the casheir is very upset blah blah and sher its all fine now). Very strange call and shying away from any question related to my IBAN being shared.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,168 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    But they are not aware of the breach. A person with the name (for example) John Smith with an address of xyz street withdrew money from account John Smith at xyz street. The account details on the draft were the same as the account withdrawn.

    They become aware when the correct account holder informs of missing money. Have they been informed?


    there definitely has been a breach but more likely a security breach rather than gdpr. I’m not sure if it’s gdpr without knowing what information was disclosed to the father such as amount in account, payments, direct debits etc.

    sharing iban is not a data protection breach as it wouldn’t give access to personal information without a PIN number. Hopefully gets sorted and controls put in place to ensure that this doesn’t happen to you or other customers again,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    That's just it, amounts in account was shared, we don't know what else was shared with dad. We can't even be sure it is the first time! It was a joint account and my partner is very upset that my dad now knows how much we had in it. I asked about GDPR as I'm not well up on it but would like to know if people think it is. As far as the bank goes, I've lost faith in their ability to keep my money safe so have started the process of moving banks. I'm also not convinced that this is the first instance of this on a wider scale. They suggested it was the first they had ever heard of it. Hmm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,292 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    How did your father know it was your account that was discussed with him?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    I have two accounts, one with money and one without, he was told the amounts in both and having spoken with my father I was able to verify this to be the case. At no point did they access his account



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,168 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Why were you talking to your father about amounts missing from your account if you don’t want to talk to your father about amounts in your account, and how does your father remember if amount totals were mentioned to him when his memory of being in the bank are sketchy.


    anyway focus on money missing from your account rather than data protection. Say you want it reversed with interest as it wasn’t you who withdrew it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    Sounds like a simple mistake made by the cashier whilst trying to assist your dad in carrying out his business.

    Presumably the funds which were debited in error have now been returned to your account?

    I’d leave it at that. I’m not particularly convinced from your summation that there was any data breach. There was a security failure within the bank for which they would be liable. It appears you have suffered no loss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭Duvet Day


    If they discussed the account balances with your dad then he should have known immediately that it wasn't his account unless you both have the exact same balance which is very unlikely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,439 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    Did he not need to put in his card into the debit machine at the counter and enter his pin?

    This is the normal practice in a branch for withdrawals at the counter.

    To thine own self be true



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,292 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Sure - but how does he know those were the amounts in YOUR account, as opposed to Joe Soaps' account?

    I agree it's a security breach. He should not have accesses to any account other than his own. Not sure re privacy issues though.





  • That’s rather sloppy security breach. I’d start by reporting it to the bank. It sounds like they’re completely unaware of it. The cashier is not supposed to process a transaction like that without ID. The bank itself would have very tight protocols and procedures in place.

    Giving out account information is a data protection issue too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    OP, do you live at the same address as your father? If not, did you confirm your change of address with your bank whenever you first moved out (assuming you lived at your father's address at some stage)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,390 ✭✭✭markpb


    OP said their father has the same name so ID, if it was used, wouldn’t have avoided this problem. You’d imagine the account search would have given the cashier two possible accounts and they’d need something else like DoB (if it’s available to them) to confirm the right one.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    Let me clarify, I don't particularly care if he knows, it's my partner, remember half of it is hers. She has a huge problem, so that's one issue. My dad doesn't even know how much is in his own account so when they discussed the amount it didn't ring alarm bells.

    I'm disappointed by the breech, I'm also concerned by the bank's response. Just a minor mishap. Others could have been effected. I'm sure it's not a one off occurrence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    This is the procedure to follow, if you have a complaint to raise against a financial institution.

    State your case and concerns, and let them investigate and come to a conclusion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭blackbox


    Did your father have your bank card?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    I would expect some small amount of compensation from the bank (nothing huge) as a gesture of goodwill and admission of them getting it wrong.

    Unfortunately the training of bank staff seems to be woeful. I know from personal experience with my own bank BoI if its not a simple answer they don't know and even then they may get it wrong.

    In the last three years I've had three issues with UK banking institutions and got compensation after making a formal complaint each time. If it doesn't get investigated it will never be flagged for better training or policy change. No I don't go looking for compensation I'd prefer it if the banks got it right first time.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    If your partner's name is on the account, the cashier should have noticed or asked your dad if it is a joint account. I presume your dad would have known then that it wasn't his account.

    Have a look at the complaint procedures posted above and put in a complaint, in writing, to your bank. If nothing else, it might prevent this happening again. I know you have mentioned moving your accounts anyway so I presume there won't be any more mixups, for you.

    Get your dad to take out bank statements - I presume he has some - and tell him to bring one with him or even just the part where the account details are shown, in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    No he did not. He didn't have anything belonging to me. Bank cashier didn't follow procedure.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,168 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    What do you want to happen? People will be able to advise based on that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45 Helgagirl


    Not quite the same experience, but myself and partner have separate bank accounts, opened with same bank but different branches. The only connection between our accounts would be same address, and also as my partner doesn't use email, same email address. I had rung about a problem I had accessing my account online, and I was being sent a text message with a code. I received no text message, but my partner got one from the bank on his phone. This happened twice over two days of phone calls so seems unlikely to have been a coincidence, but I was told by the bank that it wouldn't happen. Add to this that instead of telling me that they were finished for the day, they just hung up on me before the problem was sorted, which is why I say phone calls over two days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭endofrainbow


    Something similar happened to me pre GDPR. I was given someone else's balance details (same name ).


    After a very strongly worded letter to said Building society, I received a bouquet of flowers and a bottle of champagne to my home address.


    Closed my account a week later as I didn't have trust in their privacy procedures.


    An overzealous undertrained 'yellow pack'. Horrible when it happens to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    I don't believe a few things.

    1) The bank permitted a withdrawal from one of their accounts by anyone not in possession of the account bank card.

    2) Your Dad never mentioned the phuck up in the first place. It somehow took you weeks to cop what happened, despite your Dad copping it after the fact.

    It is not a GDPR issue because it is unlikely to have ever happened.

    This is fairly convenient for your scenario.

    Internal banking procedures are not relevant to you. The bank has a duty of care to secure your money safely. Handing money over to a non-account holder is not only a breach of duty ( negligence ), but is a criminal offense in this scenario.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,183 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Would have believed if it was not the flowers and champagne unless you are a Manager of a very well to do company and I mean very well to do



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Allinall


    How do you reckon it’s a criminal offence?

    What specific law was broken?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭endofrainbow


    Believe what you want. They were accompanied with a most grovelling apology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,439 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    To thine own self be true



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  • The most embarrassing one ever was when I was in college, and this was quite a few years pre GDPR but not in medieval times either.

    I had a long standing bank account in one of the banks, but it wasn’t my main one and it had gone overdrawn by a small amount - empty account and they withdrew fees.

    I’d opened a new account with the college branch that was doing some crappy promo offer.

    My mam happened to be in the branch one day & the manager mentioned it to her and asked if she’d like to lodge some cash to clear the outstanding balance!! It was intended to avoid some kind of unauthorised overdraft fee but it caused a row!

    My mam assumed I’d blown my entire borrowed budget, which they’d helped out with, on some wild party or something and I got a very awkward phone call and panicked voicemail about what the feck I was spending my money on …

    I was over 18 and it was none of anyone else’s business. I’ve never banked with that organisation again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    So your assumption is that I made the whole thing up. Your entitled you your opinion. Read the opening synopsis closely. It's a synopsis not the entire detailed story as that would take far too much energy to write.

    Btw, just to make you feel better, my dad didn't cop the mistake, like many elderly Irish of a certain vintage, he does not use internet banking, he had no clue how much was in the account, my mother (now deceased) handled "the money". My dad knew he had money in his account, but no idea how much and not does that fact even bother him. My dad copped the phuck up when I spoke to him and he recognised the amounts mentioned. I don't see the issue?

    I do agree that he bank has been negligent but I am now confident having spoken with others that a GDPR breech is likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    No dad was never in charge of his money, my late mother was. They would have had accounts in various banks this being only one. My dad is in his 70's and doesn't do internet banking or anything. He would not have known how much was in the account, in fact as per my original post, he was surprised that in one of my accounts there was nothing, he remembers saying to the cashier "I'm sure I had something in there". Money is not his "thing". At the end of the day the cashier gave money to someone who wasn't the account holder, that fact stil stands, regardless of the "aftermath" so to speak.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,168 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Do you mean theft? I think larceny was abolished in 2002 in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭micar


    So...you both have an account with the same name and address.

    The only distinguishable feature is the DOB.

    The error can so easily happen.

    If there is a data breach.....then it's on the lower end.

    TBH...get the bank to resolve the amounts sitting in both or just ask your dad to transfer the amount to you.

    Then.....just move on.

    Perhaps change the address.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    Address is similar but not the same. We live next door. There are many mnay of us who were named after our parents, so I don't believe this is a unique isolated event. When I open a bank account i enter into a contract with that bank that my money and personal data wil be kept safe. To say that the error was caused by having a similar name and address is a fob off. There are security measures in place (or should be in this case) to prevent such things happening, otherwise it would be a free for all. The bank failed to carry out the neccesary checks and as such they broke the contractual agreement that was in place.

    My concern is that this could happen to others. I'm bemused by the banks responce that thhis is simply a small mistake and that all is good. Surely there is a bigger issue here. How can anyone go into the bank and access another individuals account.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It was an unfortunate human error, these things do happen, but if you feel in a generous mood by all means go and consult a solicitor, they will relieve you of a couple of hundred Euro and help you make a complaint to the Dara Commissioner which will get you absolutely no where.

    In trying to help your dad a clerk made a serious mistake like most people do at work from time to time. It was corrected and you suffered no financial loss at the end of the day. You can rest assured that it will not happen again because from now on they will play it strictly by the rules even if it means refusing you or your father service because of some minor technicality.

    As for your confidence in the bank, that is entirely up to you, but there is no guarantee that a data breach will not occur at which ever bank you move to in the future.

    If it gives you any satisfaction, it’s probably cost the clerk any bonus they might have qualified for and it will have a serious impact on their future with the bank. Everyone makes mistakes, but failing to report it to management in a bank makes you unreliable and that is very career limiting in an environment where you have to rely on the people you employ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,839 ✭✭✭endofrainbow


    Yellow pack was Quinnsworth's own brand back in the day.

    Lower price and lower quality so untrained, cheaper staff were referred to as 'yellow packs'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭micar


    There aren't that many people out there who have the same name as one of their parents.

    The error was caused because you have same name and very similar addresses.....it's not a fob off by the bank.

    You're trying to make a bigger issue than it needs to be especially when you think that this type of error isn't isolated and similar error might have occurred in the past......honestly.....who cares. It doesn't concern you.

    It seems you want to go on some 1 man crusade.

    Don't worry...the bank will be investigating what happened and will to do additional staff training and review their processes and procedures......none of this should be of your concern.

    If your dad needs to go back in...make sure he his account details with him.

    A lesson for parents out there.....don't give your kid the same name as you. It's will cause all sorts of problem in 20+ years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    OP, sorry.

    I am too tired, to count the rest of the holes in your story.

    Sorry for your troubles and for dragging your Dad into this mess you made up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    Jesus you must work for the bank, maybe you were one of the ones I spoke to. Same attitude, dismissive. You've giving your two cents here now sling your hook.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt


    Why would I need a solicitors help? I spoke with the commission on Friday evening and on their advice I have submitted my side of the story and reported my concerns about my data being shared.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 108 ✭✭MicK10rt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭micar


    I don't work for a bank and never have.

    You're on here looking people to agree with you so you can justify some action you'd like to take.

    Do whatever ever the hell you want?

    It's all a big mad conspiracy.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,525 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Other than the bank manager apologizing and confirming that the clerk's are getting retrained, what more do you want?

    The real concern from a bank managers point of view is your father gave his address, when they typed in the street name, both yours and his address would have been there. It should have been obvious that there were two different numbers. In reality, all that happened was the clerk on autopilot clicked the first address, thinking it was all the same, and didn't do a DOB or signature check (I've actually been stopped on the signature one which surprised me).

    Your Dad now knows what you have in one single account, this seems to be your partner's issue, for whatever reason. This can't be rectified, so once the apology is made and retraining done, that's it.

    You could have been a real ass and just demanded the money returned to your account and not involved your dad. You didn't so time to move on and that's it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,987 ✭✭✭Trampas


    How do you know your dad didn’t give them your address or cashier missed heard him? You say he’s elderly and had few details on him. Maybe the bank should have refused him unless he had his bank card. Probably start a different thread then.

    What do you want to make you feel happy?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    not necessarily, some cashiers can be pretty lax. When I was a student I used to always forget my ID/bank card and needed to withdraw money from my bank account in branch.. More often than not, they happily gave me my money without any ID/ bank card after they came to somewhat know me to see me, shows they are happy to bend the rules / be a bit careless at times. Not good enough imo if they just handed out money to someone else from his sons bank account



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,390 ✭✭✭markpb


    Lots of people here seem to think that a debit card is required to make a withdrawal and the cashier went a bit rogue in this case. This absolutely isn’t the case, most (all?) banks will let you make a withdrawal once you know some of your account details and have ID. They’re not in the business of denying someone access to their money just because they don’t have a debit card with them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭Deeec


    OP I agree it shouldn't have happened. But the error seems to have been caused by your dad.

    Your dad it would appear went to the bank with no bank card and no bank account number/statement. The cashier searched based on name and address and your details came up. Your father most probably agreed that your account was his. The cashier couldnt have known that there was another person of that name at the same address - your dad probably should have said to her to double check that this was the correct account. Now the bank should have used bank card and date of birth(Id) to verify but didn't - you should query this.

    My dad and brother also have the same name and address - live next door. To avoid issues with post etc my brother changes his address slightly by using a house name. They also use jnr and snr after their names. You should add jnr onto your account name in the bank. I also know from a friend who works in a bank that they are only able to see limited info - it's possible they not be able to see the date of birth of a customer as identifiers are usually only name and address.

    By the sounds of it also your dad is not capable of looking after financial matters. At his age It would be no harm for the family to consider getting power of attorney for him so you could help him out with financial issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,282 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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