Government's secret plan to block repayment of illegal nursing home charges

Podge_irl · 30-01-2023 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178095#Comment_120178095

The Ombudsman looked in detail at the circumstances in which Mrs Coffey was placed in the Roscommon home. Her placement there came about following an arrangement entered into between the NAHB and the Roscommon home which, at the relevant time in 2003, was being managed by a former NAHB Director of Services for Older Persons who was on leave of absence. He had offered the NAHB 20 beds in the home at a preferential rate. The NAHB placed Dublin people (including Mrs Coffey) in the Roscommon nursing home and agreed to pay the home, in full, for each patient covered by the arrangement. The NAHB then collected charges from the patients and/or their families. This arrangement differed from that applying to other patients in the home who were being assisted under the Nursing Home Subvention Scheme; subvented patients, as private patients, were responsible for paying the fees due directly to the nursing home.

Sounds like a recipe to make sure the HSE never again go out of their way to come up with different ways to help patients and their families.

end of the road · 30-01-2023 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178925#Comment_120178925

and rightly so as their views are not sensible but are condoning and supporting the covering up of illegal activity.

water charges don't and didn't make sense hence the quite right, lack of support.

nothing to do with mobs, just right and wrong, and once again FFG are wrong as per.

Furze99 · 30-01-2023 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178146#Comment_120178146

It's politically sensitive I guess. I had an elderly relative in a nursing home for about 10 years in subsequent 'Fair Deal' scheme. Over this time, the state stripped out much of their savings assets and a good portion of value of property owned. I think all their pension was taken into account as well.

Having paybacks to one set of relatives for the latter 1900s and leaving the other more recent groups of relatives screwed isn't going to go down very well politically either.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179505#Comment_120179505

Whatever about how its judged politically, I can't see anything illegal in this.

end of the road · 30-01-2023 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179641#Comment_120179641

if it wasn't illegal then the government wouldn't need to try and block people from getting the refunds they are entitled to since everything would be on their side and they would have all the proof needed to show it.

10000maniacs · 30-01-2023 11:01pm

The faux outrage reminds me of the build up of momentum to the army deafness fiasco or the water charges protests.

screamer · 30-01-2023 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178009#Comment_120178009

Absolutely does show they were in it for themselves. No money for them this time, but saving face, THE most important thing a politician must do…..

Podge_irl · 30-01-2023 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179814#Comment_120179814

They are not blocking anything and no one is entitled to anything. They are settling certain cases out of court, somewhat so as to not set a precedent that might potentially entitle other litigants to compensation.

The "entitlement" is entirely theoretical and has not been tested in court - it is not uncommon for defendants to settle to avoid such a scenario. Your point is the equivalent of saying "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" which is not the advice given in numerous legal scenarios. All of this is perfectly legal. The political judgement is for the electorate.

end of the road · 30-01-2023 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179906#Comment_120179906

they are blocking people from being refunded for being over-charged knowingly.

if there was nothing illegal they wouldn't pay out.

there is no legal precedent to be set as the government have already set it by paying out, admitting they were wrong.

Podge_irl · 30-01-2023 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180079#Comment_120180079

Reaching a settlement doesn't set a precedent. This is a very basic point of law I'm afraid. The settlements very much don't involve admitting anything - its part of the point of settling.

They are not blocking anything. They are competing claims and settling some. Again, you can claim whatever political fallout you want. But it is categorically not illegal.

31-01-2023 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180094#Comment_120180094

We need to be careful what is being referred to here.

The charges were illegal, not the actions of the govt. The govt of the day were aware of this, hence the settlement strategy

The settlement strategy of the govt was just plain scummy. Not illegal though

In essence they bullied those with resources to waste as much of those resources as possible to take case up to the point of discovery at which point they agreed to settle for between 40-60%.

For those without resources to sue, they just ignored.

There are still cases pending and its a safe bet at least some of those will now go all the way to trial as they know they'll get the full amount owed (at a min) as the govt have admitted, through their own strategy documents, that they will lose. Once they lose one case they're fkd, hence the strategy outlined above

Podge_irl · 31-01-2023 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180228#Comment_120180228

We do need to be careful, and in that vein the charges were not definitively illegal. There has been no determination on their legality.

Settlements do not confer precedent.

Now the govt and their lawyers may think they were illegal and thus the settlements. But its important to acknowledge the distinction and anyone saying it was definitely illegal is misrepresenting it.

31-01-2023 12:36am

Deleted post - wrong thread!

WoollyRedHat · 31-01-2023 1:11am

This story isn't going away, more revelations in today's IDM. Think the probability of the government collapsing over this 'nothingburger' has just gone up,Leo the Lettuce or generaleleaktion anyone?

jmcc · 31-01-2023 1:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180407#Comment_120180407

I think that the phrase that FFG is looking for rhymes with "clucking bell". In any decent country, Varadkar, Harris and McEntee would have to resign. The FFG meatbots on social media will be in overdrive later today.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 31-01-2023 1:49am

This morning's Irish Daily Mail front page may indicate that a GE is a lot closer than anyone expected.

Regards...jmcc

Curse These Metal Hands · 31-01-2023 2:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178806#Comment_120178806

I like how you decided this was a nothing burger without even acquainting yourself with the very basic facts of this issue.

skimpydoo · 31-01-2023 2:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180407#Comment_120180407

John Lee was on earlier on the Tonight Show on Virgin Media and he proved that Leo lied to Pat Kenny when he said he knew nothing. There has to be an election now and anyone who says no because of whats going on in Ukraine can fcuk off. If the Greens had any backbone they would pull out of government now.

I have noticed that there is very little FFG supporters commenting on here. Is that because they can't defend this scandal or is it because they can't blame SF? Would any of the usual FFG brigade on here care to comment?

If FF or FG manage to retain votes after this, then this country is seriously fooked. This should be the last lie Leo says as an election will be happening soon and he will lose his seat.

MrMusician18 · 31-01-2023 3:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178806#Comment_120178806

I don't think nothing burgers come with a side of €12bn liability.

skimpydoo · 31-01-2023 3:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180558#Comment_120180558

They do if you are a FFG supporter. What will it take for them to see sense?

31-01-2023 3:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180255#Comment_120180255

We do need to be careful, and in that vein the charges were not definitively illegal. There has been no determination on their legality.

The leak was pretty clear that the legal advice was they would lose as the charges were illegal.

Settlements do not confer precedent.

Settlements are done to avoid precedence being set

Now the govt and their lawyers may think they were illegal and thus the settlements.

Well..... yeah.

But you think you know better than the legal advice received by successive governments 🤷‍♂️. In that case you should offer your services, I've a feeling they'll be in need of them soon enough

jmcc · 31-01-2023 3:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180553#Comment_120180553

The problem for FF/FG is that many of the families of those affected by this activity are in FF's and FG's key older demographics and those demographics are most likely to vote. If FF and FG are to have a future as major parties, Varadkar needs to be removed by FG. Harris and McEntee ditto. Martin is a problem for FF. The alternative, if there is a number of Motions of No Confidence and the government lose any of them, is a General Election. This is because the votes of FFers and FGers cannot be counted upon by the government (for many of them, this will be a political career ending issue) and the Greens might suddenly discover a sense of honour and walk. FFGers don't seem to have realised how big a problem it is for their parties.

Regards...jmcc

skimpydoo · 31-01-2023 3:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180561#Comment_120180561

If someone decides to go to court and fight this all the way you will see 100% redress and not the 40-60% been offered in settlements. This proves it was illegal.

MrMusician18 · 31-01-2023 3:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180553#Comment_120180553

I said it to my wife this evening that this story could precipitate an election but it would depend on the follow up to the first release.

I don't quite think we are at election territory yet, but if the mail has another punch to throw I think it's likely that the government falls.

It may be enough for Varadkar to be ousted on this alone.

skimpydoo · 31-01-2023 3:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180564#Comment_120180564

When Eamon Ryan said last Sunday that he would not rule out going in to government with SF, that should have set alarm bells ringing in the FF and FG HQ's. The Greens may indeed walk out of government as they might think this will have them getting their current TD's re-elected and maybe get a few more seats.

The longer this goes on, the greater the chance that the Greens will become contaminated.

31-01-2023 3:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180569#Comment_120180569

The GP might walk (any party could for that matter) but it won't be this issue for them. More likely they would walk over FFG attempts to restrict access to the justice system under the new planning legislation

skimpydoo · 31-01-2023 3:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180568#Comment_120180568

How can Leo come back from this? He will end up in some Quango in the EU. He is already plotting his escape strategy.

MrMusician18 · 31-01-2023 3:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180569#Comment_120180569

The greens are polling at little more than half of where they were at the GE. I don't think they are in a rush for an election, however they are idealists more than pragmatists so who knows.

jmcc · 31-01-2023 3:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180569#Comment_120180569

It could have been Eamon Ryan just being Eamon Ryan but he's been here before with the Cowen/Ahern government. Some of the Greens (remember that some voted against the government previously) just won't stand for any FF/FG attempts to downplay this.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 31-01-2023 3:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180572#Comment_120180572

Don't think that the people in the EU would be too eager to offer him a way out. They've got very righteous about wrongdoing in government of late. This could be the end of his political career and any quango opportunities. Even the Sindo/Indo won't give him a column after this.

Regards...jmcc

Government's secret plan to block repayment of illegal nursing home charges

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