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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,412 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Mullingar? I thought all the schools down there were dedicated to the worship of Joe Dolan?



    Oh me, oh my, you make me cry you're such a good looking woman, man. something-or-other-fu^k-knows



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭conorhal


    "It's a coeducational boarding school"

    Tell me, what does co-educational mean exactly? That sounds sort of binary to me.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,412 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Hedonism?

    Just because you feel good, doesn't make it right - oh no.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That comes under "everything else snowballed". I agree with you. I'm not trying to rewrite reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Agree 100% with all of this except the last line. Burke has done a lot wrong, but all the wrong things he did were subsequent to the initial issue. Harassing people etc is not ok. But objecting to transgenderism being enforced with wrong pronouns should be allowed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,412 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It was only Burke that caused the "snowballing". It was wholly within his power, and within reason, for him to stop it at any stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Not at all, but let me repeat and emphasise here again for the avoidance of doubt. Burke is a fool. His actions including accosting the principal and multiple breaches of the peace are frankly deplorable.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Burke was not disciplined for raising a religious concern.

    The Principal sent the email to all staff in relation to the trans student on the 9th May.

    Burke replied by email "raising his concerns" on the following day. If the disciplinary action taken against him was due to his raising his concerns, why was he not suspended when he replied to that email?

    I'll answer that for you - it is because he wasn't suspended for raising his concerns.

    It was after Burke went nuclear and decided to accost the Principal, his boss, at a public school event, on 21st June that led to disciplinary action being taken against him.

    He was put on "paid administrative leave" / suspended on 22nd August, pending a disciplinary hearing on 14th September.

    He refused to stay away from the school despite his suspension, and THAT is when it all began to snowball.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    But you see, your experience in St.Finians points towards the hub of this problem. To wit, why should one majority type of religious dogma have influence in education, whilst another minority religious viewpoint be squashed? And both sets of beliefs equally sincerely held.

    Which in a wider sense is important, I'd think some of the stricter Presbyterians up north will be looking at Burke and arguing that the Republic continues to be a cold place of no welcome for them.

    To those who say this has nothing to do with religious views, that's sticking your head in the sand. It's an argument of convenience, not based in the reality of the case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    But, was it though? Had he objected to the transgender request to use incorrect pronouns that he believed contradicted his religious beliefs but not accosted anyone or anything after that, would it all be ok? I don't think so. And that's the point that is missed here. We can't have thought police telling us what is or isnt ok.

    To be clear again, I am a (militant at times) atheist. I do not support any forms of religion especially nutjob extremists like Burke.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Hes not being fined for using the wrong pronouns though hes being fined for not following the directions of the court and staying away from the school. If he had done the grown up thing and followed this through all the required procedures correctly your argument might have merit and as previously outlined by various posters he could likely have taken this to the highest court in the land but he didn't so your argument is pointless.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    May be having the bailiffs going through his family home and loading stuff up on their van..... I remember one guys face when it started to sink in that the Dublin City Sheriff really was a thing!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Enoch Burke has done nothing wrong.

    He has done EVERYTHING wrong here.

    Let's for a moment take his side on the issue of the existence and acceptance of Transgender people.

    He was asked to do something if found unacceptable to him according to his beliefs. and he has a right to object to that request , no one is disputing that right.

    His pathway to raise that objection would have been to raise a formal complaint with his employer through the documented process for any employer/employee issue.

    That would have moved through the process and arrived at an outcome/decision. If Enoch did not like that outcome he could then go to the Department of Education for further adjudication , again if Enoch was unhappy with that outcome he could go to the WRC or perhaps directly to a court of law and pursue his legal challenge there , potentially all the way to the Supreme Court or to Europe.

    Had he done so , he would still be employed , he would not have spent a single second in prison and people, whilst not necessarily agreeing with his position would have understood his right to pursue his case as far as the law allowed.

    Instead of doing any of that , Enoch decided that his contract of employment did not exist and that the law of the land did not exist and simply decided that he could act exactly how he wished and that everyone else would simply be ignored.

    For what feels like the 1000th , here is the basic timeline of events thus far.

    • He , along with all the other staff were informed last June of the schools position regarding the student in the school. Instead of raising a formal complaint , Enoch simply began hounding the Principal and demanding that the request/instruction be rescinded for all , simply because that's what Enoch wanted.
    • Having had the entire Summer in which to pursue a formal complaint , Enoch again did nothing and simply started back hounded the Principal when school re-opened culminating in the now well documented incident at the public school event that directly led to his suspension on full pay.
    • Here again , instead of seeking to use the Disciplinary process to have his complaints about the impact to his religious rights heard , Enoch decided to pretend that the process simply did not exist and kept arriving for work and sitting in class room all day despite being suspended.
    • He was repeatedly asked to stop and again just ignored everyone and pretended his suspension did not exist.
    • This forced the school to get an injunction to try to stop him from coming to the school causing disruption. Again Enoch decided to simply pretend that the injunction did not exist and kept on coming to work. This resulted in him going to jail where he remained for 108 days because he refused to accept the reality of his situation.
    • The Judge decided to release him at Christmas because he felt that keeping him in Prison was a waste of everyones time.
    • As soon as the school reopened , Enoch went back to pretending like the previous 6/7 months had not happened and turned up at the school - Sitting on a chair in a corridor being watched by another member of staff.
    • His disciplinary hearing finally took place to the sounds of Enoch and his family loudly chanting nonsense and declaring that none of it was real and it didn't really matter.
    • He was sacked.
    • Again , Enoch decided that nothing had actually happened and continued to try to turn up for work which has now resulted in him being fined €700 per day for as long as he continues to pretend that the law doesn't exist and that he hasn't actually been fired.

    TL;DR - Enoch has had ample opportunities to defend his Religious beliefs and rights , but he has simply chosen not to and as a result nothing that is going on right now has anything to do with Religious rights , it's simply a story about a man who thinks the law doesn't apply to him.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,506 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    why should one majority type of religious dogma have influence in education, whilst another minority religious viewpoint be squashed? And both sets of beliefs equally sincerely held.

    if any set of beliefs promote bigotry, then it cannot be allowed to be practised in a workplace.

    if it were allowed, any nazi could argue its their 'religious beliefs' and demand to be allowed to practise naziism without consequence.

    Burke is a bigot, and as such has faced, is facing, and will face, the consequences of him holding that boggotted belief.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,787 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Would never happen. They hate each other more than Enoch hates obeying court orders.

    Which do ye think Enoch dislikes more, transgender or transubstantiation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That was not the argument put to me when I asked the question a few days ago on this thread. Excuse my laziness but it's a very fast moving thread and I can't be ar$ed going back to the posts in question but the issues initially centered around the "respect" needed to refer to a student as they instead of using the correct gendered singular pronoun.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


     But objecting to transgenderism being enforced with wrong pronouns should be allowed.

    It is allowed and there was a clearly documented procedure in place allowing Enoch to have that argument with his employers and perhaps ultimately the State if he took the case through the courts.

    But he didn't , so it's just about him and his refusal to recognise the law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    You do realise Enoch Burke and his family are different entities? You can't take his parent's/family's property if it's Enoch that owes the money?

    Except Enoch won't pay the money. Not a snowball's chance in hell. The State will have to pay its own legal costs and there'll be less money to fund LGBTQ+ communities and to fix the potholes in Mayo roads. Everybody loses. Except the legal team representing the State. They'll get well paid.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    If he had objected only then he would not have been sacked, locked up or be facing massive fines for contempt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If he lives at home with his parents and its a location covered by a sheriff (eg Dublin, Cork) then they can enter and reposess items from that address to cover the debt. It would be then up to the residents to prove what was not owned by Enoch rather than the burden of proof on the state to prove otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    You're probably right, if we ever have an ultra nationalist state - then the prevailing views of this will reign over others. So you're basically arguing that the majority view rules and that minorities may pee off and suck it up? I wouldn't have thought a popular argument here?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Not necessarily - If , for example they all have a shared "communal" bank account and the courts can show that Enoch contributes to that then they can seize a portion of those assets on the basis of shared ownership etc.

    They couldn't take the family home for sure , that's protected under the law , but they could take everything in it (or at least an amount pro-rated to Enochs calculated contribution to the household)



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,938 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Interesting, if that is publicly available information could you link to the policy or process here please? In which case the argument in favor of burke is indeed null and void. If there is a dispute resolution process for such instances at the school and it was disregarded by Burke then he's more of a fool than I even thought!



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,690 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Well in one of the quotes from the quote bubbles around Burke in the image below states -

    'The secular agenda from those who excluded God from their imagination is to create a world devoid of moral restraint where people are free to indulge in their sexual lusts'

    Which to seems to include all sexuality's where there is no moral restraint.

    It is interesting that the current Pope on the Catholic side of the fence who many see as progressive. Has only recently reiterated that sexual intercourse outside marriage is a sin, in the eyes of the church.

    But sure, hardly anyone follows those doctrines these days, people go a la carte instead.

    Which is similar to another point Burke about his Protestantism above as well.

    'Too many today are not serious in their commitment to the truth, to halt between two opinions is not remain convinced of neither'

    Which would correlate to his annoyance that Wilson Hospital School are in effect not adhering to their Church of Ireland ethos.

    The rest of the quotes show Burke is not seeking to be liked or expected to be liked. He just views it as part of the sufferance for his beliefs. He won't go along with modern fashions if they are inconsistent to his belief system.

    'An absolute refusal to conform to worldly fashions'

    He views it as he HAS to keep appearing outside the school as he would view himself as 'crumbling to the giants of pagan culture' to do otherwise.

    It is likely he will keep turning up at those school gates and stay in jail if required -

    'There is no room in Christendom for those who desire an easy life'.

    Burke views those who claim to be Christians and sit it out on the sideline as not being true to their faith in 'the battle'.

    This fella is in for the long haul.

    Post edited by gormdubhgorm on

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Honestly, this has been gone over again and again. every day there is somebody new coming and asking questions already well answered.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Enoch Burke has done nothing wrong.

    Except accost his employer at a public function, and ignore High Court Orders ordering him to stay away from the School.

    The rest of your post, I couldn't even be bothered breaking down all that is wrong with it, at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    if there is a joint bank account they can take the lot.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,412 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Yes. Nobody forced him to refer to the child in any way. It would be entirely possible to go through your life without referring to a specific individual by a "pronoun". Pronoun in itself means a word you can use in place of a noun - "John, give that pen back to Mary now".

    It has nothing to do with religion. It would be the same as if he was a fitness fanatic and the principal asked him not to refer to an overweight child in the school as "hippo-arse".



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