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Government's secret plan to block repayment of illegal nursing home charges

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  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That doesn't mean it wasn't accounted for, or that the accounts were falsified.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    It seems only the wealthy got the pay out because they had the money to take the government all the way to the steps of the court and then they got a 40 - 60% pay out. Seems to standard practice in the HSE, how many times have we read that the HSE have settled the case on the steps of the court. Its all just a game of attrition to these guys, unfortunately if you don't have the means to take them to the steps of the court house then its your loss.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lets recap

    • The state charged nursing home fees to those who were entitled to free care.
    • They resisted refunding everyone to protect the income.
    • They devised a legal strategy to financially weaken those challenging through the courts
    • They literally ignored everyone else who did not have the means to mount legal challenges
    • They only agreed to settlements right before discovery because they knew they'd lose. This was done for all cases that reached this point apparently
    • They engineered a way to hide the settlements so the public would not get wind of it

    There is no acceptable justification for that collection of actions



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,755 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If you have been paying attention, I haven't defended the government on every issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,755 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was deliberately hidden from the public & the Oireachtas so that it would not be detected at the point at which it should have been

    Allow me to reiterate the relevant line

    ‘Ultimately it proved possible to agree a form of wording which complied with government accounting requirements without jeopardising the confidentiality of the State’s strategy in defending this litigation,’ the memorandum states.

    Call it cooking the books, creative accounting, obfuscating facts etc, whatever you want.

    The intention is clearly spelled out in the memorandum.

    The fact that the financial watchdog went along with it is extremely alarming to say the least



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Jesus you are a heartless bastard. How would you feel if one of your family was impacted by what various governments have done ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The state, mind you, could also have done nothing to enable these patients to access private nursing homes. They were under no obligation to do so (legally anyway, whatever about morally)

    It is the process by which they did this that has been viewed by the Ombudsman to qualify the provided private beds as, in fact, state provided beds to the people in question. The state, presumably, disagrees with this judgement and does not consider it to be the original intent of the actions - i.e. had they known this would be the outcome they would likely have simply left these people without any access to nursing home care at all.

    They are not going to come out of this looking good, and certainly questionable decisions have been made at times, but it is absolutely not as simple as "charging patients for care that should have been free". If known in advance that it would have to pay for the care, the state would likely not have provided it at all.

    There will likely be plenty of discussions in the years to come about funding nursing care incidentally, as its going to be a massive issue.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The fact that the financial watchdog went along with it is extremely alarming to say the least

    So, just to be clear, when the Ombudsman says a policy was illegal that's definitely correct even though not tested in court. But when the financial watchdog says the financial reporting is acceptable that is definitely incorrect?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The state disagrees with your assessment as they agreed to settle with everyone who had the means to take it to trial as they knew they would lose if it went to trial. They were so certain in fact that they've paid out approx half a billion euro in settlements to ensure it never goes to trial

    They ignored those who could not afford this option

    They hid those settlements so the public & the Oireachtas would not find out about this strategy



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Are govt settlements normally listed as line items in accounting?

    Also, just because they settled does not mean they "knew they would lose". Companies and individuals settle cases all the time.

    I do suspect that the process by which they acquired access to these private beds was probably less than perfectly compliant and I'm not suggesting the whole thing is above board. They should have gotten advice on this before actioning it. But the likely outcome of that would have been zero care for these patients, not free care.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its gathering momentum

    The Government has asked the Attorney General to look into allegations the State deliberately denied payment of refunds to people illegally charged nursing home fees.

    In a bid to quell an escalating political storm, the three party leaders have agreed that Attorney General Rossa Fanning would “look into this issue”.

    2 hints as to what the AG will conclude. Doesn't look like this will calm things either

    • Two Dáil committees are seeking to investigate allegations contained in weekend reports that the State deliberately denied the payments in a bid to contain a potential €12bn pay out.
    • Rural Independent TDs are seeking speaking time in the Dáil this week on the matter
    • The Dáil’s spending watchdog, the Public Accounts Committee is set to examine the matter this week.
    • The Government has been urged by the Opposition to release documents relating to an alleged failure to provide payouts to families of people who were illegally charged for nursing home stays from the 1970s until late 2000s.

    On a side note, this is new info

    The Taoiseach said that it was his understanding that the issue related to nursing home charges prior to the introduction of the Fair Deal Scheme. 

    “This is all pre 2009, there hasn't been a case lodged since 2014.

    I think its safe to say more cases will soon be lodged



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I wouldn't believe a word Gilmore says. He was up to no good when he was Tanaiste too. Does he still have his crony job in EU?

    Leo is really getting a reputation for being very untrustworthy. As Taoiseach and Health Minister, he knew bloody well for a long time.

    New politics FG style. The excuse merchants have had a busy January 🙂

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    These are your emotive judgements - your own quote says it complied with guidelines.

    I see that the C&AG knew about it so it suggests to me that it was accounted for.

    You see they knew so they are part of some great conspiracy to falsify records.

    It's cynical and unseemly but it was very pragmatic protection of the public purse, especially at a time when social welfare and public salaries were being cut.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You call it emotive, I call it a quote from the memorandum 🤷‍♂️

    I merely added context



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Well, at least you'll have been proven right about the dictionary definition of 'imminent'

    lmao, I don't know how you can take yourself seriously



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    As I recall there was an awful lot of money found it's way to the FFG cronies in Rehab and Siteserv at this time the public purse so desperately had to be defended.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Ah yeah but they were FG cronys, not the great unwashed that didn't have the means to take the state all the way to the steps of the courts. FG only care about their rich cronys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There was no blanket entitlement to free residential care. Thats not what medical cards are for. Thats not what legislation going back as far as 1954 was intended to do.

    Thats not my view, but the advice of successive Attorneys General (perhaps as many as 12 holders of that position).

    Even the opposition TDs are saying privately today that, at worst, this is a systemic issue that may provide some learnings going forward.

    Thats all.

    Now everyone needs to calm the **** down and stop drinking the Paddy Cosgrave/Village/Ditch Kool Aid, which is nothing more than the ravings and gross misrepresentations of a bunch of scorned gobshites with chips on their shoulders bigger than the Gap of Dunloe, who have not one shred of public accountability for their distorted and grossly irresponsible mud slinging.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    That there's no blanket entitlement to residential care is true. I'm aware of adults with profound disabilities whose families are threatened with having their care abolished if they complain about standards.

    That's our FFG.



  • Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Mullaghteelin


    We've been here before. No matter wildly unpopular the government gets, they will just dig in and start reminding us at every opportunity that they have been given "a mandate" to serve out a full term.

    Sure, the instability would only scare the markets and disrupt all the brilliant work they've been doing. We can't let our European partners see us squabbling. Its only right and proper to get behind the government for the good of the country!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    But that still doesn't make this ok.

    A government can't decide to secretly ignore what it knows to be legally right because it finds it inconvenient.

    Also while the FFG shills are quick to jump on what the government might have expected, what about people who worked hard all their lives. Many of the generation affected by this would have started full-time work at 12 or their early teens.

    Would they not have expected a decent standard of care in their old age. Or is this another case of Varadker saying 'Oops we broke the social contract'



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,574 ✭✭✭jackboy


    You know the Ditch are doing a great job when they get attacked for stories they didn’t even release. Really getting under the FFG skin. Whatever your opinion, this is in motion now and we will see pretty fast if it’s a systemic issue or more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    "not one shred of public accountability for their distorted and grossly irresponsible mud slinging"

    The Ditch on Twitter: "The **** Ditch is now a member of the Press Council. See youse in Leinster House 🦋🐝 There goes the neighbourhood." / Twitter

    You can complain about them officially now if you want... should 'anon mud slinging' not be your thing

    Post edited by My name is URL on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This Country that performed better as an economy and Government that invests in its people, more than almost any other in the World in Q4 22?

    Yes I think its worth reminding people of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Leo has what we would say in layman's terms is selective memory.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Move along, or else this scandal might “interfere with the important work of government”, as we will inevitably hear soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    They were! My Dad and his siblings entirely funded my Grandfather's end of life care for acute vascular dementia, for two years, at a private nursing home during the reference period for this.

    But like many, if not most families, they weren't expecting the Government to look after everything and they were told in 1989 that if they wanted the Nursing Home they wanted, that it was private and it would cost them about 10k a year at that time.

    This isn't about being heartless or not, its about what the legislation was, what the policy was at the time.

    Don't be so bloody naive,do you know how little feckin money there was in the Exchequer contemporaneous to this stuff?

    Governing means establishing a balance of priorities to support growth in the economy and stability and development in society. It does not involve exposing the State to limitless claims!

    Pinch yourself to get out of dreamland lad and take your dreamer pals with you.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    So let me get this straight you think it's ok to illegally rob of Irish Citizens even when you have been told its illegal.



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