Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Forty years after joining the EEC, the British people forgot the economic conditions which made joining a necessity in the first place. They're (re)learning them now.

In relation to the New European article, it says two of the three non-regretting constituencies are tied, leaving only one, Boston and Skegness still thinking that it was the right thing to do. There is an interesting constituency profile on Wikipedia:

'The constituency has a lower level of qualifications (measured by National Vocational Qualifications) than the East Midlands average and the average for Great Britain; in 2018, 19.7% of the adult population had a Higher National Diploma or degree-level qualification, compared to the British average of 39.3%. The 2015 data also found that the median house price in the constituency was £125 000. In 2019, the average gross weekly pay for people working full-time was £462, lower [than] the average for Great Britain, which was £587. The most common jobs are process plant and machine operatives and sales and customer service occupations. Around 40% of workers work in one of these areas, more than twice the national average. The constituency also has a lower employment rate and a higher level of people on unemployment benefits than the averages for the region and the country.

According to the 2011 UK Census, Boston was "home to a higher proportion of Eastern European immigrants than anywhere else in England and Wales". People born in other EU countries, most of whom came from Eastern Europe after the 2004 enlargement of the European Union, made up 13% of the town's population. The BBC described the town as "one of the most extreme examples in Britain of a town affected by recent EU immigration".'

Reading that, it's almost like a lab experiment in creating resentment.

I get the geopolitical analogy and don't disagree that long term there has to be a normalisation of relations whether that's with the UK re-joining the EU or not but I do disagree that the sense of empire / colony and the attitude that pooling a certain amount of sovereignty and legislative alignment equates to being ruled by and subservient to "Brussels" is a lot more widespread particularly in England than just the eccentrics like Rees-Mogg.

I saw someone pointing out the Brexiteers themselves have become the true "moaners" - they're complaining all the time about Brexit not being implemented properly and are fed up with how their project has turned out.

That last one in your list (guaranteeing against further Brexit) looks the most contentious to me, because the EU is a club of consenting members, with Art.50 of fame specifically provided for exiting that club, should consent come to an end and be withdrawn. I certainly understand the sentiment behind that last suggestion, but would always argue against such guarantees, as being coercive and, as such, not in keeping with the cooperative, multilateralist principles at the root of the EU.

I’ve long said that the UK (or ‘England’, given sufficient time and British constitutional upheavals) cannot be considered for reaccession as an EU member, until such time as it has (I) as a nation, experienced catharsis over Brexit in full and (II) as a representative democracy, cleaned up the Augean stables that are its politics and electoral system (the 2 are arguably indissociable which, just as arguably, facilitated influence and meddling in the past 7+ years).

As and when it gets there, then the accession criteria can be discussed and, given the changed context, expectedly with a lot less acrimony where the contentious topics (€, Schengen, etc) are concerned.

Yep, exactly what I was warning and routinely vilified for here. British getting exactly what they want.

Hey guys, what happened to the whole "EU doesn't have to do anything", "EU playing 4D chess", "we are the EU"...? Where has all that disappeared to?

And it will only get worse as well. Absolute spinelessness. The people who ignored what they signed, acted in totally bad faith, didn't bother implementing it at all getting rewarded.

On the reported deal our place in the SM is at the behest of Britain from now on.

How in gods name can you be happy with that?

They don't do their job and dodgy goods end up here in bulk and that's that.

You'll defend this capitulation by the EU to Britain no matter what of course.

This is from the Independent.

Tony Connelly is also silent on this reported rumour.

Yea i smell bs on this one. Just look at the past reporting by most UK press. No EU person quoted as a source, this is how the UK got into this mess in the first place, blaming the EU on most UK failings and using press media as the vehicle to reinforce that lie.

The truth prob includes limited trusted trader scheme with veterinary checks, which everyone would welcome on both sides, I would hope.

Kermit & Salon, have you guys learned nothing in the last six years. The UK press routinely trumpets the latest climbdown by the EU, that the UK has got everything it wanted and finally Brexit makes sense. As usual, there is little detail, few sources and little context.

We have seen this play out so many times before. It is in the UK governments interest to get the headline out, to prepare the narrative and then to hope that the actual details get lost. We saw it with the Brexit deal itself, the Australian and NZ trade deals. Actually it is the modus operandi every single time.

And you fall for it every single time. The EU has already secured access to real-time data on imports and exports. A huge concession by the UK. The EU will still be free to stop the deal at any time if the data suggests something is not working correctly. And the onus will be on the UK to deal with it.

A quote from the Times article:

Under the plan the UK and EU would negotiate a separate long-term agreement covering exports of meat, live animals and other produce to Northern Ireland, with the UK agreeing to uphold EU veterinary standards on goods exported to the province.

So UK farmers looking to sell goods into NI, whether for ongoing or NI consumption, will need to adhere to EU standards.

You should hold your horses and wait for the actual detail of any deal before getting all worked up.

I don't get this negative binary attitude at all. The NIP goal is to ensure no hard border between Ireland and Norhtern Ireland, to provide sufficient protection to the EU Single Market from smuggling / dumping etc via the UK & ,without imposing unnecessarily onerous bureaucracy and checks between GB and NI.

If arrangements to the satisfaction of the EU can be put in place, substantially facilitated by the recent agreement on data sharing, and underpinned by the ability to check any suspicious movement which is using the "destined to stay in NI" lane but is raising red flags, in the same way customs officials at the airport can pull you walking through the green or EU lane if they suspect you're carrying contraband or whatever, then that's a win in my book.

Don't forget we now have data for the actual level of smuggling / dumping which can be traced back to entering Ireland from Northern Ireland since Brexit and it's minimal or no more than the level of smuggling / dumping that is happening on the Eatern land border of the EU between (for example and for no particular reason) Albania and Greece.

Whatever arrangements are being agreed between EU and UK need to provide a ladder for the DUP to climb back down and don't forget whatever new arrangements are put in place will be constantly under review and subject to alteration if they don't prove to be effective and all within the framework of the existing Withdrawal Agreement.

I can't ever see the UK returning to the EU in the future, because there simply won't be a UK to rejoin.

Brexit had passed from fantasy to policy and the world has not realigned to gild the turd.