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3000 km of hedgerow destroyed per year

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭StevenToast


    I have planted and rejuvenated nearly 1km of hedgerow in the last few years and have signed up to plant approx 250m of more hedgerow in the next year or so....

    Great for wildlife....

    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining." - Fletcher



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    The landscpe in Ireland that we see today has been completely shaped by us and our ancestors over 8000 years. This includes the hedgerows which are built, managed and reshaped by man and will continue to be. The countryside is a place where people live and work, ir is not a wildlife theme park. Trees like Whitethorn (introduced by English planters) and Sycamore (introduced by the Normans) used in hedgerows are non native. Laurels and Grisilinia are non native and commonly used for hedging, you will find plenty birds nesting in them. In fact you know the birds are using them over time ivy and briars will start coming up through them from bird droppings.

    You can look at the old ordnance survey maps are see the difference over time as small subsistence tenant farmer holdings are cleared into larger farms, with Catholic emancipation and land reform acts. Hedgerows have been reshaped since the 19th century. Should we really have a countryside with small lime washed cottages where tenants doff their caps to their betters as they pass by on horseback? The landscape will keep changing, always has, always will.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    deleted



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm quite aware of how our landscape has been shaped over time. However, our landscapes history has nothing to do with whether or not we should continue allowing large amounts of what is left to be removed.

    Your reference to larger farms emerging from smaller farms similarly are not beneficial to wildlife and this is well documented.

    As for your nonsense about cap donning and cottages, again, irrelevant to the discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,342 ✭✭✭prunudo


    3000km equates to 115km per county. That would require 115 farmers in each county to remove 1km of hedgerow. And this is being reported as a yearly figure, calling bs on this.

    Not denying some hedgerow is being removed but I think if there was the volume disappearing as reported we would see more evidence.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    I am very familiar with them, I live both there and Dublin, and being a keen cyclist how dangerous they are. The major change I have observed in my area of the countryside has been the spread of coniferous forest and wind turbines and improved drainage where ditches and hedgerows are still needed. In order to dampen the noise from wind turbines I've had to plant Laurels around the property (fast growing and evergreen). Depending on wind conditions turbines start to moan like banshees as they get older due to parts wear.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    If you look at how mauch agricultural land changes hands each year, and it's minuscule, I'd say someone's lying or exagerating massively.




  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    If you want a real story, just visit the solar panel frenzy forum, where more than a few people call for or have removed trees to up their daily PV bragging ability. I've seen some complain of overshadow from council trees which they want removed.

    Removing carbon fixing trees because you are worried about CO2? I don't think they give a toss about CO2, to be honest.

    It wouldn't surprise me if the concerted push for more solar panels in this country leads to significant vegetation loss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    It’s just a spring clean for the May Queen



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,942 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    What other countries have a hedgerows similar to Ireland, apart from bits of UK



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,989 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    The hedgerows are the bits of nature left over from lots and lots of small farms. And ... larger farms and development = less hedgerow.

    Since we as a country are not compensating for this nature loss, we have less and less space for nature and the spaces we do have are all disconnected.

    So, for me, loss of hedgerow is just part of the problem. The problem could be solved by planting lots of native woods ands forests. And encouraging people to plant native trees and hedges in their gardens instead of plants that don't support wildlife. And less lawns.

    I can't see how this is a problem.

    We have the space. It seems low priority for the FFG government who never think long term for a country they pretend to be the "saviours" of. The Greens, I don't know ... they always present things as problems. I would say most people in Ireland want more native woods and forests. Its something to be treasured and celebrated.

    We could waste billions on PPE at the drop of a hat for very low quality single use plastic.

    I think the problem is poor leadership and vision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99


    Is there a breakdown of where the 3000km of hedgerow is being lost , I wouldn't thing agri is the only sector that removes hedgerows, civil, "green energy" projects , property development there always something looking for more space in the pursuit of progress for mankind . Eventually humans will wipe themselves from the planet and it will return to its natural state eventually.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The reality is that people want ever cheaper food, there is a lot of talk about organic products etc but reality is different and the upcoming generation are much worse than what's gone before despite the talk, never mind sustainable, how about paying the cost of production even, if even green voters ate organic it would be a game changer. They won't though.


    The Greens want rapid aggressive population growth, they want sustainable building, yet they do not want vast Sitka spruce plantations, despite the first depending on that, nevermind the environmental impact of doubling the State population.


    People want sustainable food and food security but the best land in the world is mostly in Europe, it's being wound down, while most of Africa and Asia can only produce with incredible amounts of fertilizer and sprays on their poor soil.

    And on and on. Let's not even look at things like beef age being reduced to 23 months, that's going to force beef in to vast corporate feed lots, that's great if you are a green, white collar office job, its going to see lot of land in the east turned in to single fields, it's going to remove any environmental sustainability, its going to be hyper intensive, or forget about the Greens letting horticulture die off in Ireland and on and on.


    People want everything nice and have no problem holding completely contradictory views, as long as they think it is nice and especially when it benefits their pocket and sense of well-being, birds, people etc can go rot after that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,160 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Why would farmers and rural Ireland listen to the Greens? They despise them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭crusd


    It’s called pollarding and that looks like a decent job.




  • Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭eire23


    There is 20 year old turbines beside me and they sound the same as the day they went up so don't be worrying about that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    That small area on the outskirts of the city centre you've zoomed in on is next to large areas of greenery.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I was zoomed much farther out than the original image claiming look how green everything is:

    Feel free to compare at 1:1. Not a concrete neighborhood to find myself in.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    on the sides of roads is where most people see hedgerow being removed, and that's very visible and as you mention, usually done for construction.

    but unless you get into the fields off the roads, you won't see hedgerows being grubbed out to join up fields to make them larger. i suspect the majority of hedgerows being lost are ones not running alongside roads.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    here's a nice cheery story about ireland's largest field, which then mentions the reason the field is so big is from systematic destruction of hedgerows:




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The average farm in the US is now consolidated at 445 acres. Ireland's avg is 80

    I see about 2 dozen similarly sized farms just on my way to the interstate.

    Mostly as a dick swinging metric too in Co Meath reportedly in that. "An acre for every day of the year"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭bmc58


    Drawing a line from Ireland is not pertinent to this discussion.How many bohreens and b roads are there in Ireland / Thousands and thousands of miles of them.You loose some due to devolopment for people to live but there are many kilometers of hedgrows still left.Scaremongering headline imo.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i wouldn't focus too much on the length of ireland's road network, as there's no direct comparison to be made with the length of hedgerows compared with the length of the road network. based on figures quoted in this thread, the length of the hedgerow 'network' is probably 5x (or more) the length of the road network.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are many kilometers of hedgrows still left

    shifting baseline syndrome? by the metric of 'how much of ireland's environment is in a natural state', we're the worst in europe. yet plenty of people see little issue in eating away at the little we do have left.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    If it's farmer's removing ditches then it's likely to be large dairy farmers.

    The fines are probably a cost of doing business. About 4 years ago Glanbia were paying circa 30c/L, now many farmer's are getting 70c/L.

    Farmers who have expanded aggressively over last few are swimming in money.

    There was a circa 50 acre farm next to mine, which had all its historic ditches in tact probably since famine times; there had hardly ever been a tractor in fields in my memory, the ditches in places were 5m wide, and there was lots of them with small fields the norm.

    A dairy farmer leased it and his first act was to make one field out of it; removing maybe 1km of ditches. When I called into "field" there was about 10 machines in field between diggers, dumpers, tractors and trailers.

    There was about 7/8 large fires each the size of a very large two storey house. I couldn't stand within 20m of them such was the heat.

    They were reported and fined.

    About a year later the same contractor did the exact same thing the other side of regional road.

    For years removing ditches is verboten for most farmers( the department know where every metre of them are via satellite), except those getting milk cheques every milking month north of €100k.

    Drastically increase fines with jail sentence for farmers and contractors on repeat offences would be a start



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd heard a not quite contradictory story from a chap who lives in north county dublin who was saying it was people moving to tillage near him who were laying waste to hedgerows; especially on the southern ends of fields, in a bid to get as much sunlight onto the crop as possible. that dairy farmers weren't as focussed on direct sunlight.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the department know where every metre of them are via satellite

    you can go to the OSI map viewer and see how many hedgerows have been removed in the last ~100 years by flicking back and forth between the 25 inch maps and satellite. the 1995 satellite imagery is not too useful, it's a bit grainy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Tillage farmers can't currently compete with dairy farmers. Tillage farmers the world over do well, but dairy is currently booming.

    Tillage farmers for the most part have their ditches long ago knocked are not expanding like dairy.

    NCD for vegetable growing might be an outlier given its closeness to market and booming prices in

    It's nothing to do with light, it's maximising ground for grass/silage. Ditches are a disaster for yield, big open fields are what dairy farmers want biodiversity be damned.

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kilkenny-man-fined-e2000-for-removing-hedgerow-1340997.html

    €2k would be about one third of a summer's days milk for a 200 cow herd.



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