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Covid 19 Part XXXV-956,720 ROI (5,952 deaths) 452,946 NI (3,002 deaths) (08/01) Read OP

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    #46982
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198951#Comment_120198951

    Do you want to post how many covid deaths he predicted?

    Go on.

    Why did your vague post leave that out?

    Well.

    He predicted 10000 covid deaths in the US. How was that not misinformation?

    Much of what he said was the truth?

    Pull the other one.

    He was deeply dangerously fundamentally wrong.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46983
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,210 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I demand every study posted is peer reviewed and write off any that arent. Except when the peer reviewed ones don't align with my opinions, then they are dangerous misinformation.

    Lighthearted post btw, I do appreciate how for the most part we were able to debate civilly in here. The past 3 years were a wild ride for sure ✌️



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    #46984
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200016#Comment_120200016

    In the last few pages we have pro restrictions posters who have disagreed with a HSE expert, a scientist of infectious disease who specializes in COVID and peer reviewed studies.

    There is nothing you can do to reason with such people.



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    #46985
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Countries all over the world advised by their respective bodies of experts and scientists recommended and undertook measures to tackle the pandemic. It was a pretty universal consensus. Even Sweden, which was famous for taking a different route, advised that people should wear masks, distance, restrict group sizes, and later started adopting mandates and measures. People may have disagreed with the nuances of the rules or specific details (I certainly did), but it's illogical to be against them on principle. Likewise certain individuals were against car seatbelts when they became law. Some individuals just conflate these things as "assaults on personal freedom" and as such attack them during and after the fact for no other reason.



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    #46986
    DLink
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭DLink


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200703#Comment_120200703

    Again with the seat belt argument.... It's pretty obvious and easily proven that they stop you going through the windscreen, unlike the masks & restrictions which have many reports for and against, not to mention the fact that I and many others consider them as window dressing & ass covering tools only. It's all about votes and / or keeping the population pacified (depending on the country).

    It's perfectly logical to be against the rules and question them, never mind just on principle, things could quite easily taken a sinister turn during covid and we'd all be sunk.

    Blindly accepting whatever rules government introduce is a recipe for disaster, there needs to be accountability, "for the greater good" or "for us all" is not a good enough reason to go along with whatever they say.

    Restrictions were an assault on our personal freedoms, I mean, not being able to go too far from home, going to the wrong supermarket, permission letter to go to work... If that's not an assault on our personal freedoms I don't know what is. Like I said above, "for the greater good" doesn't cut it.

    However it's all over now, the Twitchers & Vulnerables have had their time in the limelight, thankfully normal life had resumed for the rest of us.... If someone could just pass that memo onto the unions, that'd be great.



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    #46987
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201138#Comment_120201138

    Restrictions were an assault on our personal freedoms

    Measures against the pandemic weren't political.

    Unfortunately common sense guidelines aren't enough because there will always be individuals who refuse to follow them, hence we have mandates and laws. You point out that a seat-belt is a no-brainer and obvious and proven - yet if there's no law, certain people won't wear them, and they'll cause deaths and risk to others (not just themselves)

    If there were a pandemic of a rapidly spreading virus tomorrow with an unknown disease that was causing deaths worldwide, there would be a portion of individuals in society who would refuse to e.g. wear masks, for irrational reasons. We know this.



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    #46988
    DLink
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭DLink


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201255#Comment_120201255

    Of course the measures were political, the government threw the established pandemic action plan out the window at the first sign of trouble and they adopted the Chinese method instead... go straight to lockdown.

    Governments are the ones who introduced and enforced lockdowns.

    They couldn't be seen to have grannies dying in the street, they just cleared them all out of hospitals instead and let them die alone behind closed doors in nursing homes.

    That was also a political decision.

    As for the seat belts, so what if you don't wear one? You're the one who's going to die so the risk is on you. Seat belts have a proven positive effect, masks on the other hand........

    Speaking of masks, I'd rather take my chances in any pandemic and not wear one, I survived the last pandemic with a badly worn mask. And I know you're going to say that me wearing a mask was to protect you, well, tough luck buddy, best to give me a wide berth if you don't want to take the chance.



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    #46989
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,924 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201590#Comment_120201590

    We didn't have a zero Covid policy, only China had that, it was controversial and they reversed it recently.

    Like us, most countries adopted normal measures against the pandemic. These were to reduce cases, reduce pressure on hospitals, reduce pressure on overworked healthcare staff and reduce deaths. There was nothing ideological about it. They were temporary measures.

    Likewise when somewhere experiences e.g. extreme weather, there can be measures, rules and restrictions to mitigate the effects and keep people safe.

    Some individuals perceive practical measures as "political persecution", "stripping of rights" and other assorted silliness.



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    #46990
    DLink
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭DLink


    adopted normal measures

    If what the government did to us here is what you regard as normal, I don't want to know what you'd consider non-normal...... Thanks be to Jebus you're not in a position of authority.

    Of course they stripped our rights, needing to have a reason to venture further than 5km from your house is a stripping of rights in anyone's book, but thankfully Team Twitcher lost in the end and we got our freedom back, no more need to "visit a grave" to go to a beach or forest part for a walk.

    omicron and more importantly, economics, put the Twitchers back in their boxes.



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    #46991
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,136 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    DLink threadbanned



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    #46992
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202382#Comment_120202382

    There was nothing normal about it.

    Before we were gifted Omicron the world was panicking because vaccines weren't doing whatever it was that the experts wanted to move forward. Things started getting really scary when we were getting forced to show our papers to have a cup of tea and some countries were talking about mandatory vaccines.

    We are lucky that Omicron forced them to move forward.

    There has also never been restrictions due to weather. There are warnings. Nobody has an issue with advice.



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    #46993
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202919#Comment_120202919

    Complete fact free revisionism.

    Omicron didnt help the unvaccinated in Hong Kong moved forward. It put them into hospital and the grave.

    We were moving forwards before Omicron, thanks to vaccines. Restrictions were being lifted. Any suggestion to the contrary is a falsehood based on ignorance or deception.

    And there have been people who died because they ignored storm warnings or only survived through the last minute intervention / appearance of emergency services.

    Does that count as having an issue??? Well?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46994
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203051#Comment_120203051

    In late November 21 the government were tightening restrictions, and warning of further lockdowns unless things got better.

    Or did I imagine that?



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    #46995
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203287#Comment_120203287

    Was there something else happening in late november 2021?

    Hint: it starts with an O.

    Restrictions were being relaxed here anď abroad before Omicron. We were moving forwards. Due to uncertainty with Omicrons impact and rise in cases some restrictions were reimposed here. But for example Denmark did not.

    Once the impact of Omicron could be asssessed wrt hospitalisations restrictions were lifted.

    What would have been scary was facing Omicron with our vulnerable unvaccinated.

    Covid vaccines have saved millions of lives.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #46996
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203315#Comment_120203315

    Ok I'll rephrase.

    Just before we'd ever heard anything about a new variant called Omicron the government were tightening restrictions, and warning of further lockdowns unless things got better.

    Or did I imagine that?



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    #46997
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203330#Comment_120203330

    Restrictions were being lifted before then.

    Dealing with the number of cases we had in November 2021 with very minor reinstatement of restrictions was moving forward. It would not have been possible without vaccines.

    Other countries could carry the case-hospitalisation rate without further restrictions - due to vaccinations.

    We could not have moved forwards without vaccines or handled Omicron without much higher loss of life.

    Covid vaccines have saved millions of lives.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Options
    #46998
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203330#Comment_120203330

    You did imagine that, go look back on my posting history from that time if you want the explanation of what happened.

    Trying to reduce the dynamics to such a simple form doesn't work, but it is something being tried over and over by a few revisionists.

    Dynamic complex situations have dynamic complex answers, if you truly want to know what happened, say so (high numbers of unvaccinated still clogging up hospitals and ICU, winter surges in infection numbers, Irish government dragging out reopening longer than was needed due to fears of a repeat of winter 2020/21).

    I understand the desire to simplify the argument as any critical thinking that goes below the surface rips apart the anti-vaxxer/no pandemic/no restrictions arguments.



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    #46999
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203361#Comment_120203361

    So some restrictions were being reinstated, with warnings of further lockdowns if these reinstated restrictions didn't work.

    And you consider that state of affairs to be moving forwards, with restrictions being lifted.

    Obviously that point of view is entirely up to you.

    But it seems reasonable that others might consider that same state of affairs to be moving backwards.

    It is a bit of a stretch to claim that is a falsehood based on ignorance or deception.



  • Options
    #47000
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203392#Comment_120203392

    It is ignorance or deception to not mention that restrictions were being lifted before that point; or that other countries who had previously locked down or imposed restrictions made it through without them.

    Especially if you are trying to make some essential / global point about vaccines and Omicron. Which they were with reference to 'the world' so the 'we' was not just about Irish reaction.

    So yes it is a falsehood to present it in such terms.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #47001
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203413#Comment_120203413

    It is ignorance or deception to not mention that restrictions were being lifted before that point

    These are all from the Irish Times in the first three weeks in November 21, i.e immediately before Omicron was detected:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/taoiseach-extremely-concerned-and-cannot-rule-out-further-covid-restrictions-1.4728383
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-debates-tighter-covid-restrictions-for-the-unvaccinated-1.4718518


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-s-behaviour-will-determine-if-fresh-covid-19-restrictions-needed-gp-says-1.4719212
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-ireland-faces-further-restrictions-if-numbers-don-t-improve-says-holohan-1.4735252
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/q-a-what-new-covid-restrictions-are-coming-in-today-1.4733166


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/covid-19-ministers-warned-over-pressures-facing-hospitals-as-further-restriction-advice-expected-1.4731660
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/q-a-clubs-christmas-parties-and-playdates-what-do-the-new-covid-restrictions-allow-1.4731198
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/martin-says-further-covid-restrictions-cannot-be-ruled-out-as-new-measures-revealed-1.4730730

    Restrictions were not being lifted immediately prior to Omicron. Quite the contrary. They were increasing.

    Why you do you insist this is a falsehood based on ignorance or deception?



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    #47002
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203470#Comment_120203470

    Restrictions were being lifted throughout 2021 up to late October.

    So Omicron did not 'force' them to move forwards when they were already moving forwards before then.

    And to re-iterate once again, this is not just about Ireland.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #47003
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203487#Comment_120203487

    So, in November 21, the government were tightening restrictions, and warning of further lockdowns unless things got better.

    It turns out I didn't imagine that. Nor is it a falsehood based on ignorance or deception.

    It's not a big deal, it's just that I find that so many Covid related recollections seem to vary, it's worth double checking what actually happened.



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    #47004
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203519#Comment_120203519

    It is a falsehood to present it that governments were 'forced' by Omicron to lift restrictions. Forced implies they did not want to do it.

    Yet in 2021 they had begun lifting restrictions and had set out timeline for lifting all restrictions. And some countries lifted restrictions and did not reinstate them. All unforced.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #47005
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203571#Comment_120203571

    So it seems we're agreed that, in Ireland, the government had begun removing restrictions earlier in 2021, but by November 2021 they were reinstating some of those restrictions they had earlier lifted.

    Some might say that sounds rather more like they were moving backwards instead of forwards.

    Not you obviously, you have a different opinion. No worries, you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. We can leave it at that.



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    #47006
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203571#Comment_120203571

    How many timelines did we set out between 2020 and 2022? I recall several.

    Most full of delays that looped back into another round of restrictions.

    Why would it have been different without Omicron?



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    #47007
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,599 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full

    There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection.

    What I take from it is that at best the effect of masks is maybe not non-existent, but certainly largely over-estimated. A noticeable effect can not be proven. Not even in lab/medical environments and never mind elsewhere. Take from that what you want.



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    #47008
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204078#Comment_120204078

    Medical or surgical masks


    Ten studies took place in the community, and two studies in healthcare workers. Compared with wearing no mask in the community studies only, wearing a mask may make little to no difference in how many people caught a flu‐like illness/COVID‐like illness (9 studies; 276,917 people); and probably makes little or no difference in how many people have flu/COVID confirmed by a laboratory test (6 studies; 13,919 people). Unwanted effects were rarely reported; discomfort was mentioned.


    The study backs up exactly what we observed in real life.



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    #47009
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,599 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204144#Comment_120204144

    And also little to no difference between surgical masks and respirators (N95/FP2).



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    #47010
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,422 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203669#Comment_120203669

    It was already different without Omicron.

    First of all, not all countries which dropped restrictions re-instated them.

    And your posts are clearly making references to the world \ global situation. So not just Ireland. So your point is disproved.

    Nobody is saying Omicron didn't make a difference.

    But what is being challenged is the narrative that Omicron 'forced' democratic governments to lift restrictions. It speaks to motive. They had always intended to lift restrictions, were lifting restrictions and had set out timelines to lift them all. Omicron expedited things in certain locations but only because the population was highly vaccinated and we could 'carry' the resulting number of cases - Omicron being less severe but more infectious would still have resulted in huge numbers of hospitalisations without vaccines.

    It was the vaccines that were the essential component, not Omicron; or at least doing so without much greater loss of life.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #47011
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204214#Comment_120204214

    We set out timelines to remove restrictions but then ended up bringing in more restrictions. As I said, Omicron forced their hand.

    Wat are your thoughts on the study above?



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