Six Nations 2023 - Wales v Ireland, Sat 4th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: VM1, BBC1, S4C

fitz · 05-02-2023 8:15pm

She's just trying to stir up debate and contrary views among the panel. It's unnecessary and a bit cringey, but nowhere near as annoying as listening to Jonathan Davies out of touch, one eyed, ignorant prattle. Didn't even have enough respect to get the name of his co-commentator right. I don't know why the BBC use him, he's f*cking awful.

Cosmo Kramer · 05-02-2023 9:59pm

Davies is the only rugby commentator I've ever heard who, mid commentary, literally shouts at the (Welsh) players the same way a supporter would in the stadium. "Get it wide!", "Kick it long!", that kind of thing. The BBC must think he's decent because it feels like he's been there forever, but it's a tough listen.

05-02-2023 10:24pm

Some of the SKY pundits were like that during Munster's peak. Totally and unabashedly biased towards them to win their 1st European title

pickarooney · 06-02-2023 7:31am

The France 2 commentators are constantly at it.

Yeah_Right · 06-02-2023 11:59am

I think Brian Moore was the same.

On the game, it was pretty much the perfect result for Ireland. They went away to a place they traditionally struggle, got the win and the bonus point, were clearly the better side in all aspects but there was enough to work on before France. Good performance but not so good that they will be over confident.

molloyjh · 06-02-2023 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204069#Comment_120204069

Yeah he was pinged for making a tackle while on the ground and was told he needed to be on his feet to make a tackle. Very similar to the ruck infringements from Falatau and Beard when they were told they had to be on their feet to counter ruck. Absolutely the right call from Carley who I thought by and large had a good game. The BS Porter penalty on Williams was Gardners call so I wouldn’t be blaming Carley for that one.

sydthebeat · 06-02-2023 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207770#Comment_120207770

It was Dickson not Carley, just as a slight correction.

Adam beard is one of the most over rated rugby players out there imo

Rangy · 06-02-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201106#Comment_120201106

He has been known to channel his inner Tom Cruise before. Nothing to see here.

molloyjh · 06-02-2023 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207790#Comment_120207790

Sorry, Carley was the ref in the Racing game. Must be why I was muddling them up.

Rangy · 06-02-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203046#Comment_120203046

This has made the news today. I really don’t see anything in it. Kearney was known for channelling his inner Tom Cruise while on the rugby pitch but good to see he has channelled it the tv studio also.

All 3 panelists on Sunday and Joe Molloy are the sharpest quartet of pundits I’ve seen on any rugby panel in my life. TV3 are crushing it with them on board and some of the analysis on Sunday was high level post mortem of the game on Saturday.

Geeta · 06-02-2023 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201877#Comment_120201877

There is no comparison between Keenan and Kearney yet. There was a discussion on the panel on Saturday and Horgan put BOD ahead of Sexton in the list of all time greats. Likewise Keenan wouldn’t be on that list but Kearney would.

Even if Ireland wins the grand slam and World Cup Keenan would be behind Kearney and Sexton would be behind BOD. Talent and ability is different to trophies won when judging greatness of players. Trophies won can come down to multiple factors.

Although I am not saying Keenan isn’t excellent he just doesn’t have the aerial supremacy and tactical nouse Kearney had over a prolonged period yet. Also Kearney was identified at younger age and held his spot on the Irish and Leinster team for a decade and a half without any threat of him losing it.

Dubinusa · 06-02-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207844#Comment_120207844

While it's true that Kearney was around for a long time, it's important to remember that he was extremely limited as a player.

Keenan has much more to his game. He's faster, more elusive and he can pass. Time will tell about where he falls amongst Irish rugby greats but, he's been pretty special.

ironingbored · 06-02-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202766#Comment_120202766

Doris is a super player and if he continues in this vein could be a dark horse for WPOTY in 2023.

But Heaslip's record speaks for itself;

3 Heineken Cups, 3 Six Nations (1GS), etc

2 x nominated for WPOTY (5 years apart) in an era with the greatest backrower ever to play the game.

Dubinusa · 06-02-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208007#Comment_120208007

Heaslip was also nominated for Euro player of the year. Twice, I think. A world class player.

phily2002 · 06-02-2023 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207975#Comment_120207975

I think in his later years Kearney definitely had limitations to his game but he was similar to Keenan when he broke onto the scene and very much an all rounder

Water John · 06-02-2023 2:40pm

There is a feel of dependability about Keenan that wasn't there with Kearney.

irelandrover · 06-02-2023 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207975#Comment_120207975

Keenan has been great but so was Kearney. Kearney won European player of the year, had a great running game when he broke through. Extremely limited players just simply dont have the personal and team honours that Kearney has. Keenan would also look a lot more limited if he was put in Schmidts game plan instead of Farrells.

There seems a lot of recency bias going on here comparing current players to former players.

gameoverdude · 06-02-2023 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208057#Comment_120208057

Wtf. Kearney not dependable!?

sydthebeat · 06-02-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208057#Comment_120208057

Gonna have to be some kind of mega dependability to be more dependable than Mr Dependable himself

https://www.businesspost.ie/more-life-arts/mr-dependable-rob-kearney/

El Vino · 06-02-2023 3:19pm

Laughing at the Gabby Logan, anti Irish bias comments! She might be a poor presenter but she is definitely not Anti Irish! She represented Leeds in the Rose of Tralee in 1991 and I know she got involved in the judging of the London Rose in later years. Totally off topic I know :)

06-02-2023 3:26pm

Absolutely no doubt for me Keenan is on his way to being our best fullback of the pro era. He does everything Kearney did and he's better in attack. Similar to other cases though, he has 26 caps and Kearney had what, 100?

Interesting with Kearney was Farrell just completely ditched him when he took over as far as I recall. Not sure any of the experienced crop got the same treatment.

Madeoface · 06-02-2023 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120192572#Comment_120192572

It was a pretty huge gulf in the end. Best Dan Biggar could do was a late hit on JS first half, a lot of misplaced niggle and a butchered try scoring opportunity. Jonny tried a couple of silly cross kicks but ran the show as usual. No comparison between the two in the end.

It's between Dan B and Faletau as the most disimproved Welsh player. No wonder Northampton let biggar go.

I didn't realise North was playing til I watched it back...Gatland out!

gameoverdude · 06-02-2023 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208175#Comment_120208175

Different era.

You have kearney at full back you didn't need anyone else covering back field. His positional sense was phenomenal.

He played to the game plan of running back to the forwards to retain possession. Brave.

People forget how dynamic he was starting out.

gameoverdude · 06-02-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208214#Comment_120208214

I thought North played quite well.

ersatz · 06-02-2023 5:18pm

“People forget how dynamic he was starting out.”

Not just starting out. He used to get a lot of stick for not distributing later in his career which had as much to do with Joe’s game plan as RKs game but some of his timing joining the line or appearing for an inside pass around the ruck or back of a line out late in his career was exquisite and very often perfect. He scored a lot of tries and created a lot of tries off these skills and putting his experience to use. Adding to it his defensive intelligence and intuition made him a one in a generation full back.

Keenan has a lot of the same qualities and game intelligence and with another 25 caps will get to the same level of consistency and influence, but if he is going to amass anything near the number of medals Ireland and Leinster will need to start lifting trophies.

Ardillaun · 06-02-2023 6:35pm

When I see either Sheehan or Kelleher out on the wing near the line these days, I know we’re in with a chance for a try. They’re both fantastic with the ball as well as difficult to bring down. What fluency across the whole team we had.

However, I can’t resist some negativity if only to avoid disappointment. Porter is facing a sterner test against a scrum that will weigh in somewhere round 944 kg and that’s not entirely down to Atonio alone. Let’s hope he works on his mantras and can keep himself under better control when things go wrong. Bealham has settled in so well. Like Furlong he’s low on drama too. Our back line has many strengths but searing pace isn’t one of them despite the evidence of Lowe’s excellent interception. South Africa are the team that pose the biggest challenge there and that’s another day’s work.

gameoverdude · 06-02-2023 7:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208681#Comment_120208681

Ringrose is the key. Sublime player having an outstanding couple of years.

AbusesToilets · 06-02-2023 9:38pm

Keenan is a better tackler at 15 than Kearney was. He also has a sense of time on the ball that reminds of BOD, how manipulates a defense with movement before he catches the ball. Lowe's try last Nov vs NZ is a good example of that.

cadaliac · 06-02-2023 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208057#Comment_120208057

The idea that Kearney wasn't dependable is a clear indication your soberness.

We seem to be over complicating the full back role. Collect, run, produce.

Give time so we can regroup.

He did that in spades.

Over and over again.

randomname2005 · 06-02-2023 11:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208352#Comment_120208352

As part of the different era you now have the 50-22 rule which makes covering more important and more difficult. It is hard to compare full backs on back field coverage.

gameoverdude · 06-02-2023 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209743#Comment_120209743

Very true.

Showed how good kearney was.

leakyboots · 07-02-2023 12:23am

I've made my thoughts on Kearney clear on here before, I know many don't agree but I thought he was an ordinary/limited player for a finish in his later seasons who should have been moved on long before he eventually was. An awful last man tackler for a 15, offered little in attack other than recycling ball (which is every 15's job but to be fair he usually did it very well). But didn't have much of a break or a pass on him, wasn't a prolific try scorer. Had super positional sense and he was always handy in the air. I think Joe's gameplan suited him well but I don't think he was necessarily the most talented player if you get me. And I think if he wasn't wearing blue he wouldn't have been in the team, Joe was a bit overly loyal to him for me.

He was absolutely brilliant when he broke through mind (the ELV laws really played to his aerial strengths) and in the early half of his career, he had a good break on him, scored most of his tries in around the first six seasons of his career.

Keenan is already the better player, comfortably, he does all the nuts and bolts - positional sense, good in the air, good tackler - as expected but has that bit extra attacking nous and edge you want from your fullback. Love watching him in action.

molloyjh · 07-02-2023 12:25am

Is that Wales’ worst defeat since England 2001?

TRC10 · 07-02-2023 1:19am

I found it interesting how much ball we kicked on Saturday. It was pretty clear we make a tactical decision to not play any rugby between the two 10 meter lines. At least 3 times in the first half, we won clean lineout ball around the halfway line and VDF or Doris made great gainline carries which gave us go-forward ball to attack off, but on all 3 occasions Murray or Sexton put up a garryowen. And I thought to myself, last year we'd have always kept the ball in hand and looked to attack in those scenarios. We were happy to kick it back to Wales and let them kick it back to us or force a turnover. Doris' try also came from a brilliant kick by James Lowe. I just thought it was an interesting development in our game from last year, when it was pretty much all-out attack. I've a feeling this weekend against France, we might see more of the attacking rugby we saw in NZ last year.

leakyboots · 07-02-2023 1:24am

A few of those kicks annoyed me alright, some were close to the 22 and I felt we should have kept ball in hand

Ardillaun · 07-02-2023 4:00am

It’s entertaining but not very useful to compare players from different times. Kearney was great for us in his day, highly reliable which is what you have to have back there.

crisco10 · 07-02-2023 8:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209985#Comment_120209985

While I didn't mind pinning Wales back and not giving the crowd anything to cheer about, it was a bit frustrating that thw kicks were then going into the 22. Be much nicer to have em land just outside

phog · 07-02-2023 9:58am

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1622210730505142274?t=uL9wW1ceoeRD_lcIFh2kvQ&s=19

The heat map showing where we played most of the ball on Saturday

07-02-2023 10:06am

Very noticeable but totally understandable that we kicked a lot more on Saturday.

Borthwick and Gatland would have spent the build up entirely focused on defence. Its a tired statement but a true one that defences win games.

In light of this why wouldn't we kick to Wales? They weren't going to be multi-phasing it back into our half and didn't, they kicked as much as we did.

We got the better of the tight exchanges and used the set piece well to give us the territory to strike for scores.

We'll kick a lot less against France, they've great players for open play counter attack rugby. It will be a more turgid possession based affair but we have that in our arsenal too.

jacothelad · 07-02-2023 10:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209859#Comment_120209859

2001: Ireland won 36-6, Millennium Stadium

2002: Ireland won 54-10, Lansdowne Road

07-02-2023 12:00pm

We didn't really kick that much imo, 29 kicks from hand is pretty normal. All of Ireland, Wales, France and Italy were in the range of 25-30 kicks from hand. Horgan and Trimble highlighted one or two cases on Second Captains where we kicked but probably should have kept it in hand, probably a pre-planned thing.

England and Scotland made 37 and 42 kicks from hand respectively, that is a lot of kicking.

07-02-2023 12:11pm

After the loss to Georgia and the last year in general I think Wales needed a turn around performance they could build some momentum with. The opportunity to do that against Ireland (and I think there is a lot of animosity between Ireland and Wales) was huge and would have completely changed the narrative for them, beating the worlds number one team.

Instead they didn't look competitive at all and a lot of players looked passed it - which somewhat brings Gatland's early decision making into question. It was an emotion based selection, an attempted return to the good times and it fell flat. Saturday probably couldn't have gone worse for Wales and the scale of problem was etched onto Gatland's face at full time.

This weekend now becomes the chance for a reset but it presents two problems. Scotland aren't the same scalp, a lot of Welsh fans would be expecting them to beat Scotland (Wales have won 17 of the last 20 engagements) Whilst Wales are away - the last time Wales lost to Scotland in Cardiff was 2002 highlighting the dominance Wales have had for the last almost quarter century.

Secondly Scotland are playing pretty well. They were decent in the Autumn, a bit disappointing on their Summer tour but that performance against England will have given them a lot of belief. If Wales lose to Scotland I'd almost go so far as to say that Gatland is already under a bit of pressure - he didn't set the world alight in his time since leaving the Welsh job and he has absolutely no time before the World Cup. A poor six nations and Wales are going into the World cup probably talking about this being a transition period and a chance to get new players exposure to the biggest tournament in the game - that's going to be a difficult to sell to the Welsh public (in particular with everything else that is going on with the WRU).

awec · 07-02-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210735#Comment_120210735

I think Gatland will change approach. He has to.

07-02-2023 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210885#Comment_120210885

I dunno. Most of the Scottish tries against England came from just outside or just inside the English 22 (and my god England's defence was so so poor).

I think it's a tough one - they won't want to kick to the Scottish backline too much as if Russell is on form they can open teams up and JVDM's absolute wonder try would concern any team (Dombrandt being almost as responsible for that try with the worst attempted tackle from a backrow in recent memory.)

England were really passive at the breakdown so it's hard to know how dominant Scotland were there but Wales struggled against us and there is a bit of a template there for Townsend to work on. I don't think Gatland can make too many changes with the limited time he has, it's going to be the same team accounting for injuries and all they can do is a generic 'be better'. Wales are going to have to do what they did against us for 20 minutes at the weekend and hold onto the ball, kick only when it's fully on their terms and reach some kind of parity at the breakdown to facilitate both.

Another fascinating weekend of rugby. Italy have some performances under their belt now that suggest improvement and England looked pretty apathetic after their loss. Borthwick has been making some pretty strong comments about Jones in the media but some of that comes across quite critically of the players. France Ireland is going to be a belter and Scotland Wales is a hugely consequential game for Wales but I think Scotland are going to be too much for them.

Christ I love the six nations.

molloyjh · 07-02-2023 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210453#Comment_120210453

Should have said at home there! But yeah I figured it was. Didn’t England do a number on the on 2001 as well?

phily2002 · 07-02-2023 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211035#Comment_120211035

Dombrandts tackle attempt was pretty embarrassing. Mako was equally as bad for his second try, he was nearly walking instead of getting back. Any sort of effort and he would have had a great chance to stopped that try.

Scotland up to 5th in the world. So in 2 of the 4 world Cup groups you have the top 5 sides. Something needs to change with that

07-02-2023 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211207#Comment_120211207

They absolutely need to change the draw to much closer to the tournament and I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet. I expect not too long after the dust of RWC 2023 settles this will be one of the first announcements from World Rugby.

Wales are top seeds along with England and if Wales lose to Scotland and England (which I think is more likely than them winning either) they could drop to 10th.

As bad as our group and side of the tournament is, I remember Leinster in 2018 having a pool of death and a really challenging run in but it really hardened the team.

As always - much will come down to injuries and which teams can stay the most Healthy and unchanged.

Dubinusa · 07-02-2023 2:33pm

Gatland is certainly behind the black ball. Wales don't have much time to improve. I was surprised to see Falatau playing. He's not been top quality for a long time. The Welch public will be livid if Wales can't pull themselves out of the shyte. I don't know why North is not playing on the wing. Rees Zammit is out. Why not play North in his customary role?

After another watch, I am amazed at how well VDF has been playing. Insane levels of high consistency. Is it possible to continue this level of form? Ringrose put in a shift too. He's in form and playing brilliant rugby.

stephen_n · 07-02-2023 2:34pm

I found Lenihans comments on against the head last night interesting. He said you’d be hard pushed to find a Welsh fan before the game who didn’t think they were going to win. So it must have been hard to swallow a defeat that comprehensive.

I was left wondering after the game exactly how much was Gatland and how much was Edwards. Considering their post Wales careers to date. I would say Edwards was a much bigger factor.

07-02-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211265#Comment_120211265

I think that was massive heart over head stuff and I'd say a lot of those Welsh fans knew it. I've read many times at this stage that Welsh fans prefer beating Ireland than England at this stage and the Irish players have talked about the rivalry (and as I mentioned animosity).

Gatland returning, bringing in his tried and tested. It was a fairy-tale waiting to happen but as we've seen it was a pipe dream with only the uncertainty of change as a basis for optimism.

I agree with you about Edwards, France have improved into World beaters since his appointment having been nowhere for a decade. Gatland was DOR with chiefs before he left, how involved was he with coaching?

This weekend is a massive catch 22. I think the right thing to do is sacrifice the game, bring in some youth talent and starting building an environment before the World cup. I just don't think a week is enough to pull that off without seriously risking a drubbing next weekend which could really derail things.

Very tough place for Wales rugby.

Six Nations 2023 - Wales v Ireland, Sat 4th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: VM1, BBC1, S4C

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