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Six Nations 2023 - Wales v Ireland, Sat 4th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: VM1, BBC1, S4C

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    I've made my thoughts on Kearney clear on here before, I know many don't agree but I thought he was an ordinary/limited player for a finish in his later seasons who should have been moved on long before he eventually was. An awful last man tackler for a 15, offered little in attack other than recycling ball (which is every 15's job but to be fair he usually did it very well). But didn't have much of a break or a pass on him, wasn't a prolific try scorer. Had super positional sense and he was always handy in the air. I think Joe's gameplan suited him well but I don't think he was necessarily the most talented player if you get me. And I think if he wasn't wearing blue he wouldn't have been in the team, Joe was a bit overly loyal to him for me.

    He was absolutely brilliant when he broke through mind (the ELV laws really played to his aerial strengths) and in the early half of his career, he had a good break on him, scored most of his tries in around the first six seasons of his career.

    Keenan is already the better player, comfortably, he does all the nuts and bolts - positional sense, good in the air, good tackler - as expected but has that bit extra attacking nous and edge you want from your fullback. Love watching him in action.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Is that Wales’ worst defeat since England 2001?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I found it interesting how much ball we kicked on Saturday. It was pretty clear we make a tactical decision to not play any rugby between the two 10 meter lines. At least 3 times in the first half, we won clean lineout ball around the halfway line and VDF or Doris made great gainline carries which gave us go-forward ball to attack off, but on all 3 occasions Murray or Sexton put up a garryowen. And I thought to myself, last year we'd have always kept the ball in hand and looked to attack in those scenarios. We were happy to kick it back to Wales and let them kick it back to us or force a turnover. Doris' try also came from a brilliant kick by James Lowe. I just thought it was an interesting development in our game from last year, when it was pretty much all-out attack. I've a feeling this weekend against France, we might see more of the attacking rugby we saw in NZ last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    A few of those kicks annoyed me alright, some were close to the 22 and I felt we should have kept ball in hand



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    It’s entertaining but not very useful to compare players from different times. Kearney was great for us in his day, highly reliable which is what you have to have back there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,205 ✭✭✭crisco10


    While I didn't mind pinning Wales back and not giving the crowd anything to cheer about, it was a bit frustrating that thw kicks were then going into the 22. Be much nicer to have em land just outside



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,323 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The heat map showing where we played most of the ball on Saturday



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Very noticeable but totally understandable that we kicked a lot more on Saturday.

    Borthwick and Gatland would have spent the build up entirely focused on defence. Its a tired statement but a true one that defences win games.

    In light of this why wouldn't we kick to Wales? They weren't going to be multi-phasing it back into our half and didn't, they kicked as much as we did.

    We got the better of the tight exchanges and used the set piece well to give us the territory to strike for scores.

    We'll kick a lot less against France, they've great players for open play counter attack rugby. It will be a more turgid possession based affair but we have that in our arsenal too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    2001: Ireland won 36-6, Millennium Stadium

    2002: Ireland won 54-10, Lansdowne Road



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    We didn't really kick that much imo, 29 kicks from hand is pretty normal. All of Ireland, Wales, France and Italy were in the range of 25-30 kicks from hand. Horgan and Trimble highlighted one or two cases on Second Captains where we kicked but probably should have kept it in hand, probably a pre-planned thing.

    England and Scotland made 37 and 42 kicks from hand respectively, that is a lot of kicking.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    After the loss to Georgia and the last year in general I think Wales needed a turn around performance they could build some momentum with. The opportunity to do that against Ireland (and I think there is a lot of animosity between Ireland and Wales) was huge and would have completely changed the narrative for them, beating the worlds number one team.

    Instead they didn't look competitive at all and a lot of players looked passed it - which somewhat brings Gatland's early decision making into question. It was an emotion based selection, an attempted return to the good times and it fell flat. Saturday probably couldn't have gone worse for Wales and the scale of problem was etched onto Gatland's face at full time.

    This weekend now becomes the chance for a reset but it presents two problems. Scotland aren't the same scalp, a lot of Welsh fans would be expecting them to beat Scotland (Wales have won 17 of the last 20 engagements) Whilst Wales are away - the last time Wales lost to Scotland in Cardiff was 2002 highlighting the dominance Wales have had for the last almost quarter century.

    Secondly Scotland are playing pretty well. They were decent in the Autumn, a bit disappointing on their Summer tour but that performance against England will have given them a lot of belief. If Wales lose to Scotland I'd almost go so far as to say that Gatland is already under a bit of pressure - he didn't set the world alight in his time since leaving the Welsh job and he has absolutely no time before the World Cup. A poor six nations and Wales are going into the World cup probably talking about this being a transition period and a chance to get new players exposure to the biggest tournament in the game - that's going to be a difficult to sell to the Welsh public (in particular with everything else that is going on with the WRU).



  • Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I think Gatland will change approach. He has to.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I dunno. Most of the Scottish tries against England came from just outside or just inside the English 22 (and my god England's defence was so so poor).

    I think it's a tough one - they won't want to kick to the Scottish backline too much as if Russell is on form they can open teams up and JVDM's absolute wonder try would concern any team (Dombrandt being almost as responsible for that try with the worst attempted tackle from a backrow in recent memory.)

    England were really passive at the breakdown so it's hard to know how dominant Scotland were there but Wales struggled against us and there is a bit of a template there for Townsend to work on. I don't think Gatland can make too many changes with the limited time he has, it's going to be the same team accounting for injuries and all they can do is a generic 'be better'. Wales are going to have to do what they did against us for 20 minutes at the weekend and hold onto the ball, kick only when it's fully on their terms and reach some kind of parity at the breakdown to facilitate both.

    Another fascinating weekend of rugby. Italy have some performances under their belt now that suggest improvement and England looked pretty apathetic after their loss. Borthwick has been making some pretty strong comments about Jones in the media but some of that comes across quite critically of the players. France Ireland is going to be a belter and Scotland Wales is a hugely consequential game for Wales but I think Scotland are going to be too much for them.

    Christ I love the six nations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Should have said at home there! But yeah I figured it was. Didn’t England do a number on the on 2001 as well?



  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    Dombrandts tackle attempt was pretty embarrassing. Mako was equally as bad for his second try, he was nearly walking instead of getting back. Any sort of effort and he would have had a great chance to stopped that try.

    Scotland up to 5th in the world. So in 2 of the 4 world Cup groups you have the top 5 sides. Something needs to change with that

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They absolutely need to change the draw to much closer to the tournament and I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet. I expect not too long after the dust of RWC 2023 settles this will be one of the first announcements from World Rugby.

    Wales are top seeds along with England and if Wales lose to Scotland and England (which I think is more likely than them winning either) they could drop to 10th.

    As bad as our group and side of the tournament is, I remember Leinster in 2018 having a pool of death and a really challenging run in but it really hardened the team.

    As always - much will come down to injuries and which teams can stay the most Healthy and unchanged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Gatland is certainly behind the black ball. Wales don't have much time to improve. I was surprised to see Falatau playing. He's not been top quality for a long time. The Welch public will be livid if Wales can't pull themselves out of the shyte. I don't know why North is not playing on the wing. Rees Zammit is out. Why not play North in his customary role?

    After another watch, I am amazed at how well VDF has been playing. Insane levels of high consistency. Is it possible to continue this level of form? Ringrose put in a shift too. He's in form and playing brilliant rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I found Lenihans comments on against the head last night interesting. He said you’d be hard pushed to find a Welsh fan before the game who didn’t think they were going to win. So it must have been hard to swallow a defeat that comprehensive.

    I was left wondering after the game exactly how much was Gatland and how much was Edwards. Considering their post Wales careers to date. I would say Edwards was a much bigger factor.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    I think that was massive heart over head stuff and I'd say a lot of those Welsh fans knew it. I've read many times at this stage that Welsh fans prefer beating Ireland than England at this stage and the Irish players have talked about the rivalry (and as I mentioned animosity).

    Gatland returning, bringing in his tried and tested. It was a fairy-tale waiting to happen but as we've seen it was a pipe dream with only the uncertainty of change as a basis for optimism.

    I agree with you about Edwards, France have improved into World beaters since his appointment having been nowhere for a decade. Gatland was DOR with chiefs before he left, how involved was he with coaching?

    This weekend is a massive catch 22. I think the right thing to do is sacrifice the game, bring in some youth talent and starting building an environment before the World cup. I just don't think a week is enough to pull that off without seriously risking a drubbing next weekend which could really derail things.

    Very tough place for Wales rugby.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Bring in who though? They aren’t exactly falling over themselves with talent knocking on the door.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly, I don't know. Since 2017 their u20's have been either last or second last in the six nations (mostly last).

    They could drop AWJ, Faletau, Owens, Halfpenny, Cutberth and ask who the next best player is but that's far too reductive an approach.

    The question isn't so much who they drop, it's the next three questions after that-

    how do they want to play the game?

    What players can implement that style of play?

    Can Gatland and his assistant coaches the right people for that?

    Going by the weekend, Gatland picked a team to play how he wanted and they had no platform and couldn't deal with Ireland's attack. I honestly think he was a poor choice to come back but it seems generally that the WRU don't have a clue as to what they are doing. All gone a bit FAI under Delany for them.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    A center partnership of Hawkins and Thomas-wheeler with Kieran Williams on the bench would be both competitive and a view to the future.

    Sam costellow could be backed a bit better, and fast tracked ahead of Owen Williams. Ioan Llyod is a decent fly half as well.

    Dewi lake would have been there ahead of Baldwin if not for his injury just before the competition.

    Conbeer ahead of cutberth please, he's a better player.

    North back to the wing, and shouldn't be guaranteed his place either. Wales have some very decent young wingers between dyer, LRZ, conbeer and Owen Lane.

    There's still a good year left in tipuric and faleatau but there are some very decent back rows with tiaan basham, Morgan morris, jac Morgan and wainwright.


    Personally though I don't think gatland can actually change his own style to suit getting the best out of these younger players. His first season at the chiefs was an unmitigated disaster before he was moved "upstairs". His warrenball style doesn't suit the faster game, and test level rugby is turning into a faster game



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've had my tickets bought for over a year at this stage. I imagine it's down to making sure they're all sell outs. Still though it should be brought forward by some amount of time.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Was Costellow the OH for the U20s last weekend? There were some quality players, certainly in the backs. Wales need a proper 13. North to me doesn't offer much as a distributor, he's much better receiving the ball in a bit of space.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    no Costelow is 22 now, he was the U20s for 3 years between 2019 and 2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I suppose it wasn't the quantity of kicks that was interesting, but rather the fact that we kicked ball that we 90% of the time would have attacked from last year.

    And I think it makes sense. In 2019, teams figured out our attack and completely smothered us, yet we kept the ball in hand and repeatedly got smashed behind the gainline. And in November we started to see signs of teams becoming wise to our attacking shape. Why give teams the opportunity to smash us? Apply pressure on them through contestable kicks, and when they make mistakes, we know we have the attacking game to kill them on the transition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    It also depends on where you are in the field. I don't really think there's any debate on this anymore, getting the ball out of your own half (and kicking it out is obviously a lot easier than running it out) is the optimal way to play. It's a large part of the reason Italy lost to France, their exits were horrible. In the peak Schmidt years, Murray could put the ball on a sixpence and our wingers were brilliant at winning possession back, I don't think Murray can do that anymore with the regularity he could before and we don't have the same wingers with the same skillsets.

    There's no real point in comparing anything to 2019 imo. We've moved on beyond recognition from just giving the ball to Stander and having him run into the nearest defender.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    France have a dangerous backline. The kicking game will have to be spot on. I was happy to see this tactic employed. A little change of play keeps opponents guessing. Moving the ball around will melt the French pack, hopefully.

    Without JGP the tactics will be altered and in the long run it could be good for us. Murray did well last week. There's a little life left in him.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,489 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    As others pointed out, Sexton had a poor day kicking. He'll need to be much more precise vs France. Giving Penaud the ball in space on a wing is suicide.



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