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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    And if those vile crazies think you're going too far...

    Though in fairness WBC makes their money by being as publicly offensive as they can so that they can goad people (frequently family members at funerals) into attacking them so that they can sue them. So they have a vested interest in getting people to follow the legal process.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Interesting article on Eddie Izzardʼs experience of her adopting she/her pronouns and how easy and smooth it was.

    Even she was surprised how quickly her new pronouns were accepted worldwide.

    Not just in one school.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    👁️ Enoch Watch 👁️

    Tuesday 7 Feb - Day 10 at Wilsons Hospital School

    Tuesday 7 Feb - Fines x 12 Days = €8,400

    🏳️‍🌈 Donations to "Enough, Enoch" GoFundMe in support of Irish LGBT charities = €5,675 🏳️‍🌈



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    Is he still showing up at the school?



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And you're conveniently ignoring not only the student's rights, but the school's obligations to comply with the Equal Status Acts in relation to the student.

    You'd be surprised how quickly and easily it becomes natural to refer to someone in their new name and pronoun. Yes, people will make slip ups while getting used to a pronoun change - that's only to be expected and a genuine mistake can be forgiven but that is not the same as someone outright refusing to use a new name or correct pronouns and then repeatedly, deliberately, misgendering someone.

    That is considered bullying and harassment is not even allowed on Boards, let alone anywhere else - like a workplace.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    Yes according to the Irish independent.

    Nobody mainstream will have much interest anymore in it until his next day in court.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    The 'praise the lord' crowd in the states have that market pretty much sown up and wouldn't take kindly to an outsider trying to muscle in. No I think Enoch's best bet is if he could conjour up a miracle preferably outside the school gate! You'd imagine between mom and pop and the dozen or so offspring that a little miracle wouldn't be beyond them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Not so sure about that. Didn't Henry VIII pluck a whole new church out of thin air!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,690 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    No I accept the students rights etc. But I am pointing out the practicalities most average people would think him/her. And maybe most would play along and change it to ‘they’ after checking themselves.

    Now the difference I suspect is that many on this thread have close associations with the small but vocal Transgender Community. So ‘they’ is second nature for such posters. Plus it is supporting a ‘cause’.

    People should realise that those outside the small bubble require a period of readjustment. It is very new.

    The Transgender Equality Group estimate that there was 4000 as of 2017. That is less than about 0.03 percentage of the population of Ireland. So it is a minority in all senses of the word. Tiny but very vocal, with very vocal advocacy groups. To give context there is 29000- 40,000 travellers in Ireland less than 0.6 percent of the population

    What it proves to me that you admit most think him/her. The general population 99.97% have to play along and go with ‘they’ honestly which I believe is a statistical impossibly. It just does not work. As to most ears to use ‘they’ as pronoun is an odd way of speaking.

    How is it considered bullying if goes against someone else’s identity and beliefs. Is the student identity somehow greater than that of Burke?

    Burke’s belief is clearly his identity. And is extremely sincere in those beliefs. Why was Burke not given the option not to use the They pronoun?

    Would a Jewish teacher from a Jewish school be asked to eat Pork sandwiches on staff picnic? Just because Pork was the only option they had because one Gentile (non Jew) loved pork sambos—-

    What the principal should have done was issue no dictate and left it up to each individual teacher IMO.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    At the base level he wasn't given any options because he wouldn't engage with the process. Which is also why he got fired. All staff were notified how the student was to be addressed going forward. Instead of having a discussion about it or going through established procedures Burke decided to start shouting about it.

    He wasn't given any options because of his actions. Much like why he was fired. And why he was in jail. And why he is building up a fairly large fine. All because of how he decided to act.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,690 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I agree there but the principal’s initial statement was the cause of Burke’s admitted over reaction. Nowhere from either side of the Wilson Hospital School debacle have I heard the principal’s initial statement was an open ended one. And not a ‘decree’ as Burke would no doubt view it.

    Because if the statement on the ‘They’ pronoun was open ended surely it would have been stated by now? And Burke would have even less of a case for his gripe.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Why was Burke not given the option not to use the They pronoun?

    How many times are you going to ask variations of this question hoping for an answer that you agree with?

    The facts aren't going to change just because you keep asking.

    Firstly - The law is clear around equality , so the principal was obligated to support the request from the Parents and the student.

    Secondly and by far most importantly in this instance is that Enoch Burke point blank refused to have any discussion or negotiation about this issue.

    He demanded that the school outright reject the request and that NO ONE be allowed to refer to the student using gender neutral terms. When he was told that this wan't an option he had his tantrums which got him suspended and fired.

    This has been explained to you repeatedly.

    Equally , it has been pointed out on this thread by multiple posters that it's an almost certainty that there are other schools with transgender students and also ones that have staff that aren't comfortable with the use of gender neutral terms.

    But guess what? There are no other teachers standing outside their (former) schools protesting.

    Why?

    Because those involved were capable of behaving like adults and were willing to find a compromise solution that allowed everyone to get on with it.

    Sadly , "Behaving like an adult" and "Compromise" are not attributes that Enoch Burke possesses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    No, the cause for Burke's overreaction was entirely himself.

    The staff were informed that a student had a new name and used new pronouns. If he had an issue with that there are proper procedures for him to follow to do so. He chose not to use them and instead jumped straight to being abusive. That is entirely on him.

    As it is he has no basis for his gripe. His beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with why he was suspended or fired.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gormdubhgorm, all these questions have been discussed multiple times now.

    And as has been explained many times on this thread, Burke did have the option not to use the "they/them" pronoun. He could have simply used the student's name. That's if he ever came into contact with them.

    Despite claiming you accept the student's rights, with each post its becomes more obvious that you clearly don't, as you somehow seem to think everyone else has a greater right to deny them their rights, because "it's awkward".

    Nor do I think you fully understand the signifcance of gender affirmation to a trans person.

    Maybe you will find the clarity you seek within the Equal Status Acts.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Exactly, the school principle at the time handled the issue poorly from the start. A bit less dictate and a bit more room for individual expression and this would have passed by with no notice. I'm sure lessons will have be learnt though around the country. Co-incidentally or otherwise, the principle in question has moved on now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Im sure many people have learned that refusing to compromising and refusing to take part in a disciplinary process is a surefire way to get fired and make your unemployable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    yeah imagine expecting an adult to behave like an adult.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    There will perhaps be a bit of action on this on Friday as I believe Enoch is due back in the High Court then.

    Question is will he:-

    A/. Break open his piggy bank?

    or

    B/. Pack his pj's and toothbrush for another stretch in the 'joy?

    Thankfully it's a short week.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Again...

    The ONLY person who "handled the issue poorly" was Enoch Burke.

    The ONLY person refusing to to allow any kind of "individual expression" was Enoch Burke.

    Lesson have indeed been learned - Never hire a Burke and we are also likely to see some new powers given to the Judiciary to aide them in handling recalcitrant injunctees.

    And yes , the Principal has since moved on - To become Principal of a larger school in another part of the country , coincidentally or otherwise....



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "A bit more room for individual expression"

    You mean, like when a trans person makes a request to be called by the name they choose and gender they identify as?

    Or does your definition of "individual expression" not go that far?

    Also Principal McShane publically announced she was leaving WHS on 3 June, almost 3 weeks before the event where Burke accosted her, which led to his dismissal. No connection at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Also Principal McShane publically announced she was leaving WHS on 3 June, almost 3 weeks before the event where Burke accosted her, which led to his dismissal. No connection at all.

    much more fun for the enoch supporters to make insinuations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    Well, it is pretty much all they have. That and pretending his getting fired was about something other than his behavior.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    People definitely losing interest now.

    A wet and windy week might revive interest.

    Does he hang around all day? Any breaks?

    No doubt he will bring his "struggle" to the European courts.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not sure if you are trolling or if you don't actually understand what happened.

    So, here's a serious question. How did the Principal handle the issue poorly?

    It's my opinion that there's no chance that Burke was going to let this pass with no notice.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yep, and notice the error in the reporting.

    Last August the school requested that teachers address a trans student by their preferred name and pronouns.

    Mr Burke refused to do so on religious grounds, saying transgenderism goes against his beliefs.

    He was then suspended from the school but kept turning up for work on a daily basis.

    No mention that what he was actually suspended for, was for accosting Principal McShane. 🤦‍♀️

    The Extra.ie article is guilty of the same thing.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    No doubt he will bring his "struggle" to the European courts.

    He's blown any chance of that with his actions and behaviours throughout this whole circus.

    Nothing that has happened to him is because of his beliefs.

    Any claim that it is fails instantly at the question - "Did you raise a formal complaint about this via the agreed grievance process?"

    His answer here is no, so that's the end of that for him legally speaking in terms of trying to make this about freedom of expression/freedom of religion.

    He might have some angles around legal technicalities/failures in the dismissal process in terms of an undotted I or uncrossed T somewhere, but if they exist they will have absolutely nothing whatsoever with his religious beliefs etc.



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