Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

"They/Them" has been used since the 1300's as a singular pronoun for a person whose identity/gender may be unknown, such as referring to a person at a distance for example; "They are standing over there beside that tree", "I do not know them", "Their coat is brown".

We all use it regularly even when the gender of the person is known. "Where are they? They said they'd be here by 9!" is equally as valid as "Where is she? She said she'd be here by 9!" If anything "they" might be easier to say than "She said she'd..."

So if a person wishes to be called they or them in the 3rd person, does that mean that the person does not know his/her own gender? If a person is biologically male but identifies as female, would addressing that person as she/her not be more accurate. I can understand to a certain extent the they/them addressing if the person identifies as being genderless, however and of course in the case of the pupil in Multyfarnham, that person may well not identify as being any gender in particular. I don't know the details of that, perhaps it's being purposely being kept out of the public for some reason.

Assuming it's not a typo, what on earth is a beliefer?

Not for Enoch Burke, it’s not!

Someone who has beliefs, but isn’t prepared to be pigeonholed as a believer? 😀

Apologies, I don't do very much social media bar WhatsApp for messaging and Boards.ie, for the past 20 years. Plus I only do mainstream media for my news.

Enoch is a gobshite, I would imagine the majority here think similar.

I don't think Enoch turned up today. He better have a good excuse or a note from his Mom!

Please elaborate, in relation to the above response to "gormdubhgorms" post that you quoted. I'd like to further understand your short reply that doesn't give any specific details as to what you mean in your response to gormdubhgorms. gormdubhgorms went into quite a lot of detail in his/her post however your reply seems very masked, pun intended.

Wow! I know his brothers and sisters have biblical names but do they all think along the same lines. I mean do any of them take a drink or party or do they all believe their purpose in life is to be praying and basically waiting to die!

There are certain characteristics associated with genders that people want to avoid.

It's the same when someone labels you "Brittish" - even if you're not bothered or offended it's still bloody annoying.

Cats, dogs, penises and vaginas aren't labels and don't define character.

Somebody that previously wasn't, but then saw her face?

Yes; generally a trans woman would prefer she/her pronouns and a non binary person would prefer they/them pronouns.

In your small bubble maybe. But outside of that bubble the reality is different you casually throw around phrases like binary and non binary as if it an everyday common garden discussion.

The reality is the whole discourse even is a brand new phenomenon for most of the world. Which again leads me back to the reality that if most people see a trans person they think him/her. If you are really honest about it.

Which defeats the whole purpose of the trans person requesting a they pronoun in the first place.

As the whole premise of transgender people is that others have to at least ‘play along’ with the language to humour a minority at the very least.

If a minority groups existence is dependent on the affirmation of the world at large (however sincere/insincere) I am not sure such a minority group can ever really exist independently. It makes no logical sense to me.

I can’t think of another minority group that has this strange dichotomy.

In order to exist as how you view yourself - the world must say ‘yes that is what you are’.

And you even admit those who want to use ‘they’ pronoun is even a minority within a minority in the trans world. That makes it even worse!

As for those who were him and now want to be referred to as her or vice versa.

The issue is similar but not as pronounced as there is no new invented pronoun.

Does the outside world really believe that the him is now her? Or vice versa. I don’t believe so.

I feel in a way it is almost patronising to trans people to say ‘yes of course you are’. While not really believing it.

The whole issue reminds me of the film Babe where the Pig thinks it is a sheeppig.

But the reality is shattered for the pigs mental health when the Pig realises what most humans do with pigs.

Fundamentally the Pigs (Babe) self awareness is all dependent on how the world perceived it. In the end the Pig cheats - wins and everyone lives happily ever after..

But unfortunately for trans people the world is not like a children’s film where such affirmation is freely given without question- sincerely. That is just the reality.

And I just can’t fathom how trans people can live in such a world where their view of themselves is wholly dependent on others. Normally an individual finds strength in themselves or their community.

And does not need outside help for their very sense of self identification.

I don’t get how it will ever work nevermind an extremist like Burke.

But there are much more vast numbers in the world who don’t sincerely buy into the whole trans construct language and so on. And if it is not sincere or a truly held belief by the world at large that yes a trans person is now him/her or even they.

How does the whole premise or belief survive independent on it’s own?

When the general world populace does not sincerely see what the trans person believes they are. No matter how they refer to them.