Non-restricted license and mag size (centre fire)

cosieman · 03-02-2023 11:03pm

Easier to get a pistol than a restricted rifle legally

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198082#Comment_120198082

BSA International · 03-02-2023 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198830#Comment_120198830

I'll take your word for it 😉

BattleCorp · 05-02-2023 7:04pm

For the record, it's not that much more difficult to get a restricted rifle licence than an unrestriced firearms licence?

The application form is the same, you just have to tick a different box. The major difference is that you'll have to put in a letter with your application explaining why you need 'that' firearm and why an unrestricted firearm won't do the same job. For example, if you wanted to shoot Gallery Rifle CF Lever action competitions, you need a centrefire lever action rifle so that's what you'd write in the letter with the application. It's not rocket science.

You might get called for an interview by the Chief Super and you might not. You might get asked to increase your security and have it inspected by the Crime Prevention Officer or you might not, but that can happen with unrestricted firearms too.

That's pretty much the only difference.

Grizzly 45 · 07-02-2023 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198082#Comment_120198082

No ! It would make it a pistol,as thats what it was originally licensed and described and imported as. Whether it has a stock added or not is irrelevant! As we do not have a category in Irish law of "stocked pistols".The stock in this case is an accessory and does not turn the pistol permanently into a rifle as it is detachable. Same as the French Unique pistol/rifle combination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fFqh78orew

BSA International · 07-02-2023 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210709#Comment_120210709

No, not convinced.

otmmyboy2 · 07-02-2023 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211159#Comment_120211159

Well rather than look up the legislation yourself to "convince" yourself, here ya go:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2008/si/21/made/en/print

The section which defines a "short firearm" - means firearms either with a barrel not longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length (including the length of any detachable component) does not exceed 60 centimetres;

IE you buy a buckmark pistol with a barrel <30cm then unless you replace the barrel it will always be classed as a short firearm, since everything with a barrel of less than 30cm OR an overall length of less than 60cm is a short firearm.

Thus here a buckmark pistol with a stock(detachable or otherwise) remains to be a pistol(short firearm), so essentially you need a restricted licence for a longer barreled version, but the shorter one is non restricted(and limited to 5 rounds because pistol).

BattleCorp · 07-02-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211159#Comment_120211159

I wouldn't like to be the one to test your theory that sticking a pistol into a rifle stock turns it into a rifle.

BSA International · 07-02-2023 5:36pm

Thing with the law is that it's always vague enough to convince you that your right 😀

Unless it's been "tested" in a court situation it's all about opinions.

I'd not want to be the test case 😀

So if overall length of said Buckmark including detachable stock is less than 60cm it would appear you'd be OK.......So is it under 60cm?

Grizzly 45 · 07-02-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211976#Comment_120211976

It' doesn't! If it was a pistol originally, it stays a pistol irrespective of removable components in the eyes of the law if it was originally registered as such.

Whether you add a stock or not ,or a longer carbine barrel to make it more accurate in that configuration as these are all detachable components.

The Buckmark carbine comes in a carbine configuration,if it has a detachable stock or not it is still a carbine. the Buckmark pistol is a pistol configuration,if you buy it as such and declare it on your license as such that's what AGS have it as,if you add a detachable stock and possibly a longer barrel,it is STILL because of its paperwork a pistol. No ifs or buts.However,if you were to say weld up the detachable stock and mount permantly the longer barrel.THEN you have tried to convert it,for whatever reason into a rifle.

Same way as my Glock17 does not become a rifle[carbine more correctly] if I put it in a clamshell CAA Roni carbine kit.,or some of the lucky ones amongst us put their broom handle Mauser on their shoulder stock holster.

It's the same reason the Unique .22 pistol/carbine set-up was still obtainable and licensable here during the TCO era. While they were registered as pistols originally ASFIK, by removing the critical component of the .22 barrel, they were relicensed as .22 rifles. Now post TCO, if you can find one complete its back to being a .22 pistol. And if you do find one let me know I've wanted one of those since I was a kid of 11 and saw one in Nestor bros shop in Limerick.

Mellor · 08-02-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211459#Comment_120211459

Yup, it's still a short firearm. The suggestion was that sticking a detachable stock onto it allows more rounds. Which is obviously no true. Possibly some confusion between the pistol version sand the rifle version - that is 850mm overall.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212248#Comment_120212248

Agree with most of that, but not all of it.

It's irrelevant where the added parts are detachable or welded on. The definition of short firearm was posted above by @otmmyboy2 and clearly includes detectable parts. The Glock and Buck mark pistols, still meet the criteria of short firearm with a stock, so are still pistols. The barrel lenth defiens tham as pistols.

However, then swapping in a carbine barrel (with the stock ) means it no longer meets the definition of short firearm - In short you'd have converted it carbine (long firearm). Carbine barrel on its own, different story.

The firearms are defend by their size not the paper work - otherwise all sots of modifications would legal.

Mellor · 08-02-2023 12:58pm

As for the Unique Pistol/Carbine combo. I assume it needs separate licenses, like similar dual barrel firearms.

Will let you know if i see one

Munsterlad102 · 09-02-2023 11:14pm

A similar hypothetical: is a 223 bolt action rifle with an adjustable stock restricted or non restricted if its 95cm with the stock fully extended and 85cm fully retracted. Likewise, is a 223 bolt action rifle with a fixed stock restricted or non restricted even if you remove the stock to bring it below 90cm.

Note: single-shot or repeating rifled centre-fire firearms of a calibre not exceeding 7.62 millimetres (.308 inch) and whose overall length is greater than 90 centimetres,

otmmyboy2 · 10-02-2023 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222037#Comment_120222037

On the former most countries measure with stock extended, but you can be sure they measure it closed here, because that's the more restrictive move :-P

On the latter I suspect you'd be fine if you removed the stock and the rifle was under 90cm, simply because the implications otherwise are more than the doj, dpp and ags could handle (1000s of gun owners in court essentially, or mass conversion of their non restricted licences to restricted).

Mellor · 12-02-2023 2:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222037#Comment_120222037

If the stock is collapsed or removed for storage. I imagine that is fine. As the firearm is the required length when restricted? But if somebody shortened a rifle and was intending to use it. It would be restricted. Sane as any other restricted modification you could make.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224075#Comment_120224075

On the stock I think most sensible is to measured in the state it’s used in.

Not sure why 1000s would be in court? There are not many rifles under 90cm out there. But maybe I’m misunderstanding.

otmmyboy2 · 12-02-2023 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230902#Comment_120230902

Well consider that 90cm is ~35.5 inches, and if you have a rifle with a 20inch barrel(common enough) then, with the stock removed, for the rifle to remain over 90cm you would need an action with a length of 15.5 inches, which seems like a rather exceedingly long action.

Mellor · 12-02-2023 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231790#Comment_120231790

A 20” barrel rifle with the stock removed will in most cases be under <90cm. But I’m not following why you say the restricted rules wouldn’t apply? I don’t often see people at the range firing rifles without stocks.

It seems like that’s exactly the kind of modification that would make a rifle restricted. As I said above, I don’t believe it would apply to a removing/folding a modular stock for storage or maintenance but only the rifle in use.

otmmyboy2 · 13-02-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120233875#Comment_120233875

The idea being that you have a rifle that you remove the stock(as in as part of a full disassembly or replacing the stock with another). You haven't then created a restricted rifle, at least I sincerely doubt it would be looked at as such, because if it was then 1000s of rifle owners would be in court if they ever changed their stock on their rifle for example.

Hence by the letter of the law if you have such rifle under 90cm it is restricted, but any sane interpretation of the law would deem it to simply be a non restricted rifle with the stock removed, which was the hypothetical question posed.

Mellor · 13-02-2023 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235028#Comment_120235028

Isn’t that covered the second paragraph? I suggested disassembly for storage, maintenance, changes, etc modification would be fine.

It would only fall into the restricted category if somebody tried to shoot with a shorten rifle.

Say a modular stock, fine to remove stock to change configuration. But turn up to the range with a stock less rifle, shooting from a pistol grip like Terminator. That’s probably were the restricted category comes into play.

cosieman · 22-02-2023 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198082#Comment_120198082

There is no laws against shoulder stocks for pistols in Ireland unlike our yank cousins

Munsterlad102 · 22-02-2023 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273281#Comment_120273281

Also no laws against getting a 22lr sbr with a proper stock.

dalalada · 22-02-2023 9:55am

is it only a pistol under a certain length

Mellor · 22-02-2023 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273807#Comment_120273807

Certain overall length (60cm) AND certain barrel length (30cm).

If one or the other is under it’s a shirt firearm (includes pistols and revolvers)

Grizzly 45 · 22-02-2023 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273281#Comment_120273281

Big noise on about that right now,with Sleepy Joe and the ATF banning pistol brace attachments, saying they are now short-barrelled rifles.

Also, if you have something antique like the Artillery Luger, Mauser, C96 and the Inglis Browning Hi-Power,you are good,as ATF classifies them as antiques.

Munsterlad102 · 23-02-2023 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275112#Comment_120275112

Only specific named pistols are exempt and they’re fairly specific, so certain Browning Hi Powers are exempt and others aren’t.

Yeah the whole SBR and SBS are a relic of an attempt to ban pistols in the 30s. Not as if it makes any difference when you can but an AR15 pistol upper on an AR15 lower with a stock.

Grizzly 45 · 23-02-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280025#Comment_120280025

Yeah the Inglis Hi powers are exempt.They were the ones made in Canada or a short run of them from Leige before the Germans took over the plant in 1940. Easily recognised by the slot in the rear butt strap for the Mauser C96 style stock. or simple slab board& holster combo.

Putting an AR pistol upper on an AR rifle lower in the US will get you a holiday in club Fed. As that is classified as a Short Barrelled Rifle [SBR] So unless you registered the lower as an SBR and paid the Feds 200$ ... Take the stock off it and buy it in a pistol configuration...Its fine and classified as a pistol... go figure.

Anyway,here is a handy pic of what a pistol, rifle, and SBR are according to the ATF. Hope it helps.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Non-restricted license and mag size (centre fire)

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