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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This. Yet now suddenly there is so much concern about if it's correct grammar to use "they/them".

    Exactly!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,406 ✭✭✭Tork


    I don't know how this will end but for now, I foresee jail for him.

    The rest of what you've written applies to the behaviour of a normal person. Those Burkes are an Evangelical cult and they don't think like you and I. They're on a mission from god and they're putting in the hard work before they go through the pearly gates. I've linked a couple of times in this thread to an old Irish Times article from 2010. Back then, the family were getting into their car a few times a week and driving to Dublin. Then they'd protest outside the Dáil. Even when it wasn't sitting. Now, ask yourself. What sort of people would even think about undertaking a mission like that? All that has changed is that instead of Dublin, it's Multyfarnham and instead of the Dáil, it's the school gates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,334 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    To be fair, "[Deleted User]" does sound like a girls name...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭jj880


    Eh no. Previous poster was speaking for everyone (not just they) which I always find strange on a discussion forum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    They'd need to freeze their assets next. As in no money for food, diesel to be driving around to cause disruption etc.

    Without funds they become limited very quickly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    I don't agree that him being religious means he'll feel compelled to pay it. In fact the carry on of the religious orders accross the world shows the opposite. They have to be dragged kicking and screaming to first of all admit guilt and secondly to pay compensation to their victims. No I think in general for the religious orders their love of money, possessions,property, runs almost neck and neck with their love of God.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,527 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Biggest thing to come from this should be better regulation around "home schooling".

    Martina's indoctrination of her kids has them ruined for life. Hopefully there'll be no further Burkes anyway so the dysfunction ends there.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can pretty much 100% guarantee that over the course of your life you have used the word "they" to refer to someone in conversation, text, writing or whatever.

    And I'm being petty by quoting you, but everyone uses "they" on a daily basis. Unless you live in an igloo, maybe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,655 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Of course they have. They, like many people, just don't realise that they do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭jj880


    Are we talking about "they" for 1 person or more than 1 person?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I dont think think the Burkes will tire of this. It'll go on for decades

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,884 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I've been trying to figure out what an endgame might look like for some time.

    On Friday I was discussing this case with a mediator.

    The person I was talking to is very well qualified and has many years of experience and I should point out they said they wouldn't get involved in the Burke case under any circumstances.

    However they did offer the opinion that there is some space for mediation even at this stage.

    Of course both sides ie. E Burke and WHS would have to agree to enter the mediation process.

    This might be the stumbling block and that would be the end of it.

    Even if a mediation was successful Burke's legal difficulties would still need to be addressed.

    There would be a good chance that if a mediated settlement was laid out before the court it would meet with approval.

    This may already have been tried behind the scenes but if it hasn't I think that initial approaches to both parties should be made without delay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,655 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I'm sure they meant for a single person. It's what you do when the gender is unknown.

    I was hardly going to post "I'm sure he/she meant for a single person". I'd certainly never say it like that. And neither would you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭jj880


    I must live in an igloo then. I dont use they on a daily basis to refer to 1 person.

    "And I'm being petty by quoting you, but everyone uses "they" on a daily basis. Unless you live in an igloo, maybe."

    Again the implication of my first reply to you was you speaking for everyone. Absolute definitive statement. I just find that a bit odd.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What would WHS need to mediate with Burke? They've dismissed him.

    I don't see any mediation with Burke being successful or even possible.

    The only result he'll settle for would involve giving him his job back and allowing him to disrespect trans students by denying them their chosen names and pronouns.

    Not going to happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,360 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'd say mediation for the Burkes would be 'I talk, you listen'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭jj880


    Might happen on here a lot. In daily life (offline and before misgendering took on the significance it has today) did we often talk about people whos gender we dont know? Not sure about that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,334 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I think he's burnt too many bridges to go back to the school and the school have nothing to gain from entering into dialog.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In cases of the 'correct' use of English, it is always wise to have a look at Shakespeare and see how he used a particular construct in all his many works. And, low and behold, he does use 'they' in the singular when the gender is not defined.

    Now, a Shakespeare scholar can trace down examples but I cannot because I am not one of those learned types.

    Edit: https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    “I dont use they on a daily basis to refer to 1 person.”

    Of course you do, all the time. Just stop and listen to yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,406 ✭✭✭Tork


    I wonder has WHS officially replaced him yet?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure what the grounds for "a mediated settlement" would be or even what it even comprise of

    Like, the guy has been sacked, so anything arising out of that will be through the WRC. Given the Burkes past history there its unlikely it would even get to a judgement stage and more likely to just end in a farce. Maybe there was a T not crossed, or an I not dotted, but thats it as far as any settlement goes.

    I don't see any other basis for any settlement of any kind.

    What would Burke bring to the table in terms of compromise? Agree not to shout at people? Agree to pay his fines? Agree to follow the direction of the courts? Agree not to trespass.....again?



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's still named on their website as running the debate club.

    They might want to update that, or he might take it as a sign he is still employed at WHS and try to argue it in the High Court.



  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭madeiracake


    Mediation only works with rational people and the Burke family are not rational. It is hard to know what could be done with them. It is really a pity that 10 lives have been ruined by a cult upbringing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 51,759 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Thanks for that. I still prefer to call people by a first name though. I know several trans people and use their chosen name. I think its simpler.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    How exactly would you wrangle a mediated settlement out of someone who doesn't even recognise the judgements of the high court, who has no problem trespassing on either private or government property, and who actively strives to intimidate school children who at one point he was presumably teaching?

    Even if you could reach a settlement how would anyone have any confidence that he would abide by it?

    As distasteful as it is to have him taking up a spot in the prison system that should be for a violent or habitual offender I don't really see another option. I'm not sure to what extent the courts can even seize his assets or income to any significant degree; nor even if he cares.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Don't want to be petty but it does say in your link

    "Though both usages are conceptually singular, the they that has gained prominence in recent years is distinct from the version of the word used in Medieval literature. “The very old kind of singular they, the one that is used by Chaucer and Shakespeare and all these examples we love to pull out, if you look at all these examples of these hundreds-of-year-old singular theys, they are with like each man or every person,” Conrod says. “None of them are with like Bob or that guy. The new singular they is when we can use they with a single, specific person"

    I am totally out of the loop with how some non-binary people want to use "they" as a pronoun but it does seem novel and ,as such a target for people who are stuck up their own fundament.


    I think the proof of the pudding is whether it gains general acceptance.


    The star witness seems to be "queer" which was a nasty term of abuse and an attempt has been made to turn it on its head as a positive or neutral description of a particular type of sexuality (I am not up to speed on which)


    I can hardly blame the targets of class based hatreds for using any tools in their locker to defend their own sense of sense worth .

    I hope it is successful in the medium to long term.We have to watch this space and provide minorities with the protection of the law until such time as it is no longer necessary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭jelutong


    Is he claiming Job Seekers Allowance I wonder?



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  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One of the conditions of a job seekers payment is that the claimant be available for and seeking work.

    Enoch (a) doesn't accept he has been sacked and (b) is not seeking work, so has disqualified himself.



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