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Is housing really that bad or is it just another hyped up 'crisis'?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,431 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    What needs to be done is to halt all landlord subsidies such as HAP. Over 50% of renters are in accommodation which is priced too high so the state steps in and inflates the market up to that level.


    If those landlord subsidies are stopped, rents will come down and house prices will come down. The market should be allowed to float at its natural level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The majority of LL would not be caught by interest rate hikes. However other costs are gone up. Now annual reg fee ya only 30-40 euro but it's an added costs. Electrical cert for a house 500+ every five years. A HAP inspection will invariable ost you 500-1k in bits and pieces. Recently had a leak, just to get the leak fixed was 120 euro. Getting the odds and ends fixed, a few doors planed so they will close again, hole in ceiling repaired, bit of painting is 2-3 days work, handy man is 150/ day( strictly cash to him) costing me 250-300 per day, I cannot get a handy man to take a cheque or get paid by bank transfer.

    Property tax has gone up anything you get done now is 1k. I would hate to have to get a house repainted and they are only two bedroom it would be 2k++

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Slava Ukrainii





  • I would almost open up a thread (not going to atm) dedicated to having the question answered: “What would happen if there were no individual landlords? (Aside from big scale investment funds)”.

    Eg, if it were illegal to be a small time individual landlord, then we would be left with:

    1. Funds /investment companies being the main non-state or local government landlords.
    2. Owning and living in your own house or part time in a secondary /holiday home. So all privately owned houses not a primary or holiday residence would either be afforded officially rent free to relatives or else sold to other indiduals as residences or to state/council/investment fund landlords.
    3. State/local government landlords. Local governments divested themselves of a lot of property, eg Crumlin & Drimnagh houses are quite substantially in private ownership where the corpo first sold them off to tenants. Reduced maintenance need, able to not replace retired staff. & lean out.

    Then there would remain the issue of standing secondary homes that individuals could not legally rent out long term, but maybe put up as an Air BnB, if this was not, eg, regulated by special license.

    We might have an interesting scenario. The investment funds would likely soak up very much of the properties, especially apartment or townhouse style. A hell of a lot of black market “letting” to family and others of individual houses, but then more individual houses would come on the market to be bought as primary residences, maybe a bit more affordable.



  • Unregistered / Not Logged In Posts: 276 ✭✭Jazz Hands


    Housing will never be resolved.

    too many factors at play with government agencies, charities, developers, landlords, private buyers, banks, investment funds, councils, etc

    the funny thing is that everyone blames each other.

    the solution is not to build more houses, it’s to fix the process



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft


    I'm not sure you understand how rental companies or hoteliers work. You are exactly wrong on both.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    institutionals dont like to buy up the odd house here and there. Its a nightmare for maintaining a network of properties dispersed all over, they prefer centralised like apartment blocks or housing estates.

    When the small landlords sell up, its mainly council or PPR buyers. Great more people buying their own house, except that PPR houses have lower occupancy rates than rented houses (rented houses more likely to be house shares - a 4 bed house could have 4-6 people living in it when rented, when a homeowner buys it could be between 2-5, usually on the lower end.

    What this means overall is that as rental market shrinks, the number of people without a place to live increases.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    100% agree.

    It's too far gone to be fixed. Even if we could double the amount of houses build (we cant) the country would still be behind what is required.

    The situation is going to get worse. I bought a house last year. Got a mortgage for 2.5%.

    It's 4% now, or an extra 300 a month for people in the same position as me. So an extra 18,000 euro over the 5 year fixed term. F*ck that, and good luck getting house prices to drop by that over the short term.

    But hey, what choice do you have? People have been saying for the past 5+ years that the arse is going to fall out of the market any day now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Too busy with fake crises like climate change and what flavour vape pen to get next



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Only the poor, the underemployed and the old protest.

    The rest of us are too busy working.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All the lads giving out about landlords just go away and buy a house, that will cause the rental market to crash making rentals more accessible for all.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭micosoft



    Are you amused by your misunderstanding of the word subsidy? Any commercial entity will raise their prices if their input prices go up. Nobody is asking anyone to subsidise anything in that case. Costs are simply being passed through at market rates. The correct use of the term subsidy would be the government restricted landlords ability to raise prices meaning the tenants are subsidized as the market rate is not being passed through.

    My point applies to every business - hotels, airlines, taxi companies, construction companies and pretty much every business none of whom lock precious working capital into buildings or products. The fact you don't understand this shows you are pretty early on the Dunning curve on this topic. More bemused by your post than amused.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭quokula


    Average house price in Ireland is 7.3 times the average salary. This puts us better than 90% of the world, but worse than the US, worse than 3 or 4 European countries, and worse than some oil rich Arab countries who's economies are hardly comparable. We currently have some of the lowest interest rates of comparable countries (which has not usually been the case but our high level of savings on deposit due to our strong economy have allowed banks to absorb a lot of the recent rises) and have some of the strongest protections out there in the event that people can't pay their mortgage or their rent.

    We do have issues with a lack of liquidity and options out there, but prices are not out of line with the majority of other developed countries at all. You often see people talking about how everyone is going to emigrate because of house prices when they compare premium locations in Dublin to locations in the middle of nowhere that have low salaries and high unemployment in other countries, when you may as well be comparing house prices in Longford to those in Kensington.

    We enjoy high salaries and high standards of living in Ireland, and that is accompanied by high prices for most things because the people providing services have high salaries and have to comply with high standards throughout the supply chain. Being relatively isolated from the rest of Europe and having a relatively low population with less competition has an impact too. But it generally balances out for the most part.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,141 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    I think that's a simplistic view.

    The average house price in Ireland is 359k

    Average salary is 45k, though the median is 37k.

    If a couple on average salary is buying an average house then they can just about get a mortgage for the full amount. 4 x 90 = 360. They'll get a 90% mortgage and it will cost them 1500 a month over 30 years, or 25% per month of combined earnings.

    If a couple on a median salary is buying an average house then they fall short. 296k and must come up with nearly 60k in the difference. Lets say they do and their mortgage will cost 1400 a month or 28% of combined earnings.


    this is all averages though. If you fall outside of this by any margin, you're screwed.

    Can't find a house because they're all bought off plans?

    Dont have a partner to buy with?

    Either of you earn less than average?

    Need an above average costing house?

    Can't access 36k or 59k for a deposit because you're paying through the nose in rent?

    Have any other outgoings or dependents?


    The math falls down once you step away from the ideal couple, with help from mammy and daddy, who are buying a 3bed semi in a dormitory town



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't be so naive/dishonest. I'm far from a complainer about everything in Ireland, and I know there are freeloaders out there, but you can't even name one of those "plenty" with endless rental opportunities. There is a very serious lack of rental accommodation. Just because there literally are some units available for rent, doesn't mean everyone who needs somewhere to rent will get it. The demand drastically eclipses the supply. It's a lottery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,755 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I am with you on this 100%. Make enough trouble, take enough cases to the RTB even when you're in the wrong, stop paying rent, damage where you live, and word will get around. A lot of that kind of information is publicly available now. That would explain someone on 900 a week not having a place.

    However, there is still the general problem that people want to have a three-bedroomed semi in a good Dublin suburb near Mammy and not have to pay. Over the last 20 years, those houses have gone three-storey with smaller gardens and no driveways for parking, yet we just physically can't fit anymore in. If you want to live inside the M50, it will be an apartment unless you are trading up having paid off your mortgage and want to start another one. Also, areas outside the M50 with good public transport links will be the same. That is the European style trade-off.

    In the longer term, working in Blanchardstown and living in Cavan will also become unaffordable because no public transport. The world is changing faster than people's expectations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,136 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    It's a fair question and I think there are are likely several answers:

    • it's been a long slow burn - much like the fabled frog in the pot of boiling water
    • The people most affected are a dispersed grouping. You'll find them all over the country but they don't have that cohesive bond, that say, those in a union would have - which would make it easier for them to network and organise
    • Learned helplessness. I remember there were threads back around 2010 wondering why people weren't on the streets protesting about the crash. A common answer was that unlike, say the French, Irish people didn't tend to protest. Now, to be fair since then we have seen the water charge protests and in recent times the migrant protests so maybe this is changing. You could argue as well that the housing crisis is the biggest driving force of the migrant protests. If there was capacity in the housing system refugees probably wouldn't be getting placed into buildings in small regional towns and villages. Also, a common trope that fuels the protesters is that migrants are getting on the housing list ahead of Irish people.
    • People who own property are probably objectively unhappy with things like increased homelessness and hearing about horror stories in the rental market in the media but at the end of the day they are content to see their own equity expand. That's the reason, to answer your last question, why FF/FG are still on 40% support. They are content with the status quo. That is also, by the way, why you will never hear a politician from the major parties explicitly say that they think house prices need to fall. They will say that we need more affordable houses. They will say that we need more houses. They will say that we need more help for first time buyers. But they will never, never, never say that house prices need to fall. That's because they are signaling to the contended home owning class that, although they will pay lip service to fixing the housing crisis they can be trusted not to rock the boat.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,617 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Thanks for the tip. Seems we're not allowed to criticise landlords.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭BnB


    They're not really addressing it though. All they're doing is shouting down everyone else's attempt to address it without providing solutions themselves.

    They're absolute only manifesto is, "we're not FF or FG so sure how bad can we be...." and people are (and will continue to be) moronic enough to vote for them on that basis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I'm in agreement here but it sickens me then to here FFG on about 'protecting the free market' for housing.

    We never will have a free market for housing in Ireland. Economics 101 says a free market is one free of government intervention, where producers can enter easily, and consumers have full knowledge and no coercion.

    But I guess it's a line their PR army reckons works with the base.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Interesting too to hear people talk about poor individual choices and people wanting to live near mammy.

    It does that some are insulated from, or unaware of the scale of the problem.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Can the landlords then throw out all those subsidised people onto the streets because they aren't subsidised any more?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Have you thought about the fact that a lot of people who vote for FF and FG would like to see the housing crisis resolved, but don't think SF are the best or even a good option? It isn't either/or. I remember SF going on about the EU stealing billions in fish from us and also we were giving away hundreds of billions in gas and oil, huge deal apparently, complete silence about it now though for some reason. It seems they have managed to convince the younger generation that they can solve the housing crisis. I think if they do anything, it will be increasing social housing for the unemployed. There will be no more houses built, but the people getting them will be different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,431 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Sure. Subject to whatever provisions are available for the tenants in order to prevent a no-longer-subsidised-landlord from abusing their position and violating tenants rights. If the tenant doesn't pay, there are already mechanisms for you to evict them.

    There would also be a properly enforced and increasingly punitive vacancy tax though too. With a reasonably allowance for turning over of tenants. As in one-month in each 3 year period or something like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Valid criticism is fine. But you lumped every single landlord into one group and reckoned they were all lazy ba5tards, don't do maintenance on their property and rob tenants blind while wiping their ar5e with €500 euro notes......sort of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭dtothebtotheh


    34 properties for rent in county Meath, 11 of which are 2 bed. Approx cost of €1750 a month. It was bad when I left Ireland in 2011, but now it’s an absolute disgrace.

    it will hurt the economy, peoples health, and the chance for working Irish people to raise a family of their own. The country’s been sold out by the political class.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Hang on now. Do you realise what you are saying?

    If someone can't pay the agreed rent because the Government are stopping the subsidies, you expect the landlord, out of their own pocket, to drop the rent and effectively subsidise the tenant themselves? Get ta fcuk.

    You seem to want tenants to have rights and landlords to have none.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,431 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Landlord still has their rights. They just don't have their subsidies inflating their income above the normal level.

    "get ta fcuk" yourself if you think you are entitled to state subsidies for a private, wholly rent-seeking, enterprise. You might have them now but there is no strong argument for you keeping to get them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Fine. No subsidies then. Let everyone on HAP try find their own accommodation and pay for it themselves. That'll work out very well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Are you just looking on Daft? Properties are advertised elsewhere too. And many are only advertised by word of mouth. I know someone in my town who has about 5 rental properties and they've never put up an advert. It's all word of mouth because they don't want to rent to someone they don't know or their friends don't know.

    But agreed, there's not enough rental properties for sure.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,431 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It will be up to you as regards whether you want to negotiate a new, actual market, rent with your tenants which they can afford, or to commence proceedings to evict them (for however long that takes) in order to replace them with different tenants who will still only want to pay the new actual market rent.

    You will have the same rights as previously. As will the tenants.


    The State can use the billions saved to buy in prefabricated modular buildings for new social housing as well.........given that we keep being told that there are no Irish builders left.



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