Marathon Improvers Thread.

I might tag along to this thread if there's room for one more!

Dublin doesn't suit my calendar this year unfortunately, so I'm going abroad. I tried the Berlin ballot, but had no joy, so off to Estonia instead (it was either there or Amsterdam, and I don't really understand my why, but I chose Tallinn).

I've run Dublin 3 times.

2016 (4.18) fairly delighted to have completed it, but if left a Sub-4 itch I wanted to scratch

2017 (4.26). I think I suffered from over-training here, without a proper programme either. Ran myself into the ground ultimately.

2018 (3.48). Most enjoyable training programme, not nearly as heavy as 2017, but got myself into overall better shape, and it really worked well on the day.

Had a great running year in 2021 despite no marathon. Made some serious improvements over 5k, 10k and half marathon distances. Achilles tendinitis in 2022 kinda ruined me and just starting to get going again.Working a lot on overall fitness this year as a base, and will try find a suitable programme for Tallinn. Ideally would like to go sub 4. Would be delighted to beat 3.48, and if I do much better than that we can just assume I've cheated!

I would consider steady running appropriate and necessary in good basebuilding after a couple of months of largely easy running. Scullion makes the point that steady running has a rythm similar to marathon running so it gets you efficient.

He also says you should run easy before and after and this is the crux in my opinion. Steady running should be part of a well thought out training program. It shouldn't take away from other sessions. If you can do a steady run sandwiched by 2 easy days and not compromise recovery from other sessions then that might work. His idea of adding steady segments to easy runs gradually is good. That stops it from fundamentally changing the balance of the training.

It can also have a use the day before a long run, perhaps for a person who has already developed a 2hr long run, isnt on huge mileage then the steady run could be introduced the day before to prefatigue and make the long run more challenging.

Not to be introduced willy nilly. Best time to use them IMO again is after a base of easy running has been established.

Just read that Ryanair have done away with their Tallinn service.

So either looking at a 6 hour trip with stop-over in Frankfurt or Sweden...

Or looking for a new marathon. FFS! Hitting the wall before the training even starts

It's not sold out by the looks of it. Will make call on it later.

The date suits anyway, so we'll see!

Some nice analysis there, I don't know much about the specifics of training to VO2 max or lactate threshold intensities but I would guess some of the sessions in the plans I use are designed with these in mind. If I'm reading your piece right I guess apart from steady there is a happy spot between HMP and MP were stamina especially for the latter stage of a long one can be found.

Some excellent posts there demfad 👍

I'll keep going so! If you watch a marathon (as I did Dublin from leaders to midpack on a few locations in October) the big difference you can see as the speed reduces is that running form changes drastically. Runners with slower times have generally inferior running form, and the slower the time the more noticable it is.

Ok, we all know this, so what? Very, very fit runners with very fast times and very good form spend a lot of time on their form. Very slow runners don't. They believe it's something for the elites, that when you get to a certain level of fitness maybe time to look at it. But we can see clearly that runners are expending way more energy than is needed at their marathon pace. But maybe they can't afford to spend that time, maybe they are better off running? You can improve forms just by incorprating it into exercise during running.

Let's return to those VO2 max and hard (short tempo) sessions that many schedules prescribe (because form work can fit here instead). The idea of these VO2 max sessions wrt an elite marathon is that aerobic power (the amount of air your body can absorb) is increased by these sessions, the LT runs raise the LT obviously but form part of the process where they can be extended out so that the runner can still use a high level of aerobic power as he/she approaches marathon race pace. For these elites, aerobic power/LT is close enough to marathon race pace where it directly improves it or sessions can be utilized to spread the aerobic power like butter across the marathon duration. I think Amercian coach Joe Vigil called it % fractional utilization of VO2 max, but its same thing, you get the picture hopefully.

But marathon improvers race pace is not close to LT OR VO2 max. Doing these sessions and extending them out is not going to help (ENOUGH) your race pace because it is way slower (law of specificity) and most of your energy is coming from burning fat anyway. That is why IMO translating these elite sessions with pace adjustment does not work for the rest of us: a 4 hour race run with poor form, has very little to do with and very different requirements from a 2.xx race run with good form if the objective is to maximize the improvement.

The key paces are 2 hr race pace (Aerobic threshold) and the paces between that pace and your marathon race pace. LT is important but to a lesser extent. With so much to be gained by improving efficiency at race pace (form is visually a huge part as we can witness) why not swap out the faster sessions with sessions that incorporate form AND these other paces?

Biggest, BIGGEST adaption is to use your but. "When running do not try to save ass, let ass save you!". Remember that.

How so you do that?

Incorporate strides, but develop the form gains in the same session. FAR away from the Warmup, do glute activation exercises (google and try to do them before most runs (60-120s) ) do strides (flat ground, hills). After strides, run a short portion (2 mins start then increse) with the same form as you just did in the strides, jog 3 mins, then do say 5 min LT with same form, then do say 10 mins AeT. Get the idea, you are doing strides but teaching yourself to run with the good technique at these other paces.

Normal runs, do a minute of glute stuff before, then have a hill EARLY in the run. Run up the hill using your glutes (move hips forward and feel glutes work). Slow down run easy up hill, but use glutes. You will likley use glutes for rest of run. In fact every time you meet a hill think of teh new proverb above.

LT, AeT runs etc. Glute activation, hill strides: shallow hill so you can run as if on flat, good form, with glutes (dont kill yourself its just to activate glutes). Off you go on your run. Good form, easier intensity (hill strides before a tempo/AeT run make it feel soo easy).

Incorporate it consistently, 3 weeks ingrains habit etc., will make a massive difference.

This type of training also best helps youre longer term development as a runner. You need to address form sooner or later. Why not start early in a marathon buildup

Once your sessions then focus on improving endurance at AeT, marathon pace etc.

Happy to do out a few sample sessions or schedule if people want?

Things to consider off the bat.

Cardinal rule (dont get injured especially if old like me)

-Do you wish to increase mileage? Now is the time but glacial pace of increase to achieve fitness from consistency (no injury/niggle)

-Make sure you maintain the occasional easy long run to support the faster long runs. Nice to do it in a nice place, hills, nature etc.

-2 week cycle???: E = easy, S=session, M= moderate EL= easy and long

Week 1. M T W T F S S

E E S E E S E

Week 2. M T W T F S S

E S E M E S EL

FULL SESSION: To be run RELAXED, fast will come naturally later.:

From John Kellogg: Sets of buildups or strides (ex.: 2-3 sets of 5-6 x 15-40 secs., jogging equal distance between reps and jogging 5-10 min. between sets - always do buildups, strides, and drills WITH the wind, if any) + drills and/or hills on occasion + 2-8 min. @ 90% effort (following last set of strides) every 2 weeks

Increase gradually eg with 3 x 6 x 15s. Then next time 2 x 6 x 40 (I dont do much more) then 3 x 6 x 20 then the 2 mins fast. Next 3 x 5 x 40s with 3 fast etc. (do what you feel is right for you, but progress and do it gradually). Later Morph session into where you add an LT rep at end..strides then 2 mins fast then 6-7 LT and start reducing number of strides.... Next drop the VO2 max bit and keep adding to LT....Progress to AeT in this way all while reducing strides volume back to maintenance levels.

I'm making it more complicated than it is but that's the gist.

Also, beforehand. Find a few drills you like. Do half a drills routine controlled before that stride session. Good technique during strides.... transfer it to good technique on the reps after

(google 'John Kellogg PDF' for that session)

Sample MODERATE SESSION:

Hill strides: 10-20 x 30 seconds (very relaxed, focus completely on form and technique, use glutes (NOT an all out sprint/hill rep). First start with 8 add a few every time). Followed by 7 mins fastish. Keep adding to the 7. (reduce stride duration for the first couple of sessions if you feel 30s initially too long)

Glute activation before, make a point of using glutes and good technique. This session reinforces goof technique in the hill strides before utilizing the learned technique in the subsequent rep. As with the previous session, as time passes AeT reps can be added or used exclusively. As form improves and you get into meat of marathon training, reduce the strides eg to 5-6 x 10-15s and the sessions become normalized.

Plenty of easy days between. (For you, Try and get standard easy run up to an hour or just over.)

Note: Edited

I agree that the mileage change and the consistency you'll get if you avoid injury will see you into the 2:30s.

Just train as if the gains will be in a few months, hold back, thousand mile stare etc. A little within yourself.

Reward yourself with the occasional race (I'm looking at 1 per month now, often as just a particularly hard training session where I might just have one extra E day on either side).

Milo of Croton is a good reminder of how conservative consistent gains pay off: https://www.lionstrongcoaching.com/the-story-of-milo-and-the-calf/#:~:text=Milo%20was%20a%206th%20Century,carried%20out%20the%20same%20feat.

I'm not saying it's the pace you should run steady (I believe 3 hour race pace may fit that better) I am saying it's the Aerobic Threshold pace and that pace is more important for improvers than VO2max and indeed LT pace.

From McMillan for a 1:50 HM, Ive snipped race and training paces-

2h race pace is 5:15 which relates to mcmillans steady state 5:08-5:21. This is max fat burn. I would start at slower end and start extending runs out at this pace. Maybe first 20-30 minutes of run to progress and then hover at this pace. Keep extending run to run

3hr pace is circa 5:25. straight long tempo (an hour or whatever you can manage first)

You can do a run at 5:45 as a long steady.

Also long runs at your normal long easy

Tempo runs can be used: a few to build up the LT then use intervals with initially marathon pace as the recovery, then work the recovery down to 3hr pace and towards 2hr pace.

EG 48 mins 3 min LT 3 mins MP

Progress to 60 if you can but slolwy work the recoveries down. Thats the key speed there not the LT.

Use the form stuff and hill reps to make you strong.

Marathon training is like all good things. You have to wait. Be patient, progress the sessions, no hero stuff, patience is the hero stuff.

Have been tipping away with multiple run a week, nothing massive structured. Have been doing two trail runs a week, not looking at times, just getting in the elevation. On Friday, I signed up to a 5k for Saturday morning. Said I'd see how it went sure, no expectations. Was very flat, elevation gain of 7 feet. And I woe the Saucony Pro 2s for the first ever time, never wore carbon plate shoes before.

19:41 - first time ever going Sub 20. Over the moon

Well done. That’s brilliant.

May be best to post this elsewhere, but hoping for more experienced eyes...

Running about 16 months, consistently averaging 35m/week. DCM22 was my second marathon (part of boards novice program), first being back in 2008. Since Christmas I've done a few halfs in training and was planning on doing a half each week as LSR. I have a couple of races coming up - Naas 10 mile this weekend and the Wicklow half 26th March.

I went out yesterday and done 16m and it got me thinking....

Can I run the Connemarathon? That's in 8 weeks. Yesterdays run was fine but I struggled from about 11m. Legs felt very heavy. If I do it, it target will be to finish, not for any time. And, yep, I know it has hills and likely long periods of nothingness, and the weather could be dreadful (or great).

So, I was thinking this week to do a 12m midweek and the 10m on the weekend before trying to do 16-18 the weekend after (11th March) and building up from there. That's 6 weeks from a 16-18 mile to race day.

Thoughts?

Oh, and no interest in travelling that far for a half, and I know there are other races towards the summer but Connemarathon send out the race packs, so I don't need to go down and collect the day before.