Scottish independence

What's a federal election ?

Health is devolved so Scotland had it's own rules in regard to covid.

For some reason, she is getting covid acclaim which is confusing given the enormous covid death figures.

Well this isn't what most people use. Perhaps you like to compare everything with England but surely most logical people can make judgements not grounded in comparisons with England?

The covid deaths were enormous and there is a scandal over covid positive patients being moved back to nursing homes.

I'm just wondering what's all the covid acclaim about given the enormous death toll.

It's baffling from the outside.

But who cares about that if the death toll is so gigantic.

Surely the Scots aren't that silly they would just only compare themselves with Boris or whoevers the PM in London.

If Scotland could not have done anything differently as you state why are people like the other poster I'm quoting saying things like...

It is what most people use in the UK where Scotland is.

Care to throw out a few links about how Scotland done so badly compared to the rest of the UK.

What bad decisions did Sturgeon make in relation to Covid ?

This happens all the time with NI too. Posters compare it to how Ireland is run without taking into account the fundamental differences. This is either ignorance of the facts or willful ignorance.

It is impossible to know if Sturgeon's resignation sets back the goal to independence or if a new leader adds momentum to it. There was fear that Alex Salmond's resignation would have done the same think.

The problem is that there is clearly a significant section of the population who are weeded to the union or fear independence. I have seen posts here which suggests this is done to English migration into Scotland but i am not too sure how much that accounts for it. As it happens, i have Scottish blood and have a lot of relatives there. I would have classed them as amiable to independence having strong links to Ireland and fully aware of our history. But there is little passion amongst them , either way, around independence.

I could be wrong, because I know I am only exposed to a small cohort of Scottish people, but two things strike me , in comparison to Ireland, the place I know best. One is that there seems to be a disconnect between politics and ordinary live, a view often expressed about politicians as "they need to get on with it" whatever "it" is . i.e. that political matter shouldn't bother the "ordinary man in the street" . I think that is a sentiment shared across much of the UK, I have been told similar by English people, and it might be a feature of the FPTP election system.

The second issue , when they do engage, is a high degree of caution around the future, almost wanting guarantees that they would be better off being independent. But it is impossible to reassure on that point. Independence for Scotland means the Scottish people being able to make their own decisions free of Westminster. But Scottish politicians would be capable of making bad decision too. It is the very concept that the decisions made would be their own, and not the decisions of politicians in Westminster, that needs to be promoted more. Scotland might decide they want to remain in NATO or they might decide they don't. They might decide they want to apply for membership of the EU or they might decide not. They might decide to align their economy closely with a post Brexit Britain or they might not. But the decision would be theirs. And it is that idea , that their destiny would be in their own hands, that hasn't been sold sufficiently to the Scottish people.

For whatever reason, I feel Nicola Sturgeon has stalled and it probably is the right time to go. The resignation might have been done a little better , perhaps setting out a timetable over the next year , perhaps after elections, when she might step down. If, as reported, she did make a snap decision after attending a funeral, then it doesn't reflect too well on her . I suspect, like most decisions, that multiple factors were at play. She seems to feel that a new leader might inject momentum into the independence battle.

Either way, if the fight for independence cannot survive the resignation of one politician, two if you want to add Salmond, then it was never going anywhere anyway.

She was "terrible, useless at everything"

But her approval ratings were constantly high as were SNP voting results.

Obviously the Scottish are too stupid to understand.

Some amount of unbacked up masturbatory bllsht being talked the last few days.

But Ireland's history is not Scotland's history.

I think Irish people look at Scottish independence through Irish independence eyes and fail to see the difference.

There is none of the class and especially none of the religious difference that singled Ireland out from the rest of the UK back in the early 1900s.

How did she come 'unstuck'?

She chose her own time of resignation and even surprised her most ardent critics. Sure there will be those who will say it was about this and that, but detractors could do that about anytime in her career.

Interesting questions being asked about this this AM - Merkel, Ardern, May, Truss, Sturgeon etc - do female leaders know better than males when it is the right time to go?

But I never suggested it was. I suggest you re-read my post.

But, on the points your raise, I am not too sure that class and religion do not play a part

Not the same at all. Not even in the slightest.

Westminster (England) actually really really does control Scotland. The EU never ever controlled the UK.

I'm talking about the narrative around Brexit and the narrative around Scottish independence.

They are exactly the same.

Just as leavers said that everything after Brexit would be no problem, borders, access to markets etc, the supporters of Scottish independence do the same.

Citizenship ? no problem, keeping the pound and being in the EU ?, no problem, the border with England while in the Eu ?, no problem, getting back into the EU ?,no problem.

Scottish nationalist are guilty of the same cakeism as Brexiteers.

And why wouldn't they, they need to sell the positives, not the negatives or the boring details.

They are not the same.

When Scotland blames Westminster for something it's because Westminster actually controls Scotland.

When Brexiters blamed the EU it was made up bllsht.

For instance Westminster actually controls Scottish borders and passport colours.

The EU did not control the UK's borders or passport colour.

I'm not saying there will be no problems but problems were not what we were talking about.

You said.

"Everything bad about Brexit is blamed on the EU, everything bad about Scotland is blamed on London."

Blamed you were talking about blamed and you were wrong. Talking about the future problems is goal post moving.

Scottish independence is just an even dumber answer to a dumb Brexit.

The narrative is sadly exactly one and the same, maybe with a bit of more Scottish national undertones, focus on history, and more leaning to the left rather than the Brexiteers leaning to the right.

In the eyes of the SNP it's all London's fault, in the eyes of the Brexiteer's it's the EU's fault.

The rest is also the same, dance around the real issues and questions, promise voters the same, and tell the same lies, like how free the British economy will be outside the EU, the low taxes and the well funded NHS.

Just look at Sturgeon's domestic performance and you'll see what kind of issues an independent Scotland will be facing, even more to a greater extent. And, no this time, there won't be any money flowing in from Westminster to fund free universities or menstrual products for women and everything else.

Keeping the pound? No problem, eh? And if the Bank of England raises interest rates high to the needs of the rest of the UK's economy, Scotland would have to accept that as well? Citizenship wasn't even mentioned. Would Westminster really agree that Scots who want to leave, keep British citizenship? The SNP would of course say yes, but again it won't be their choice, it would be Westminster's choice. As citizens of the rest of the UK they could still vote in any Westminster election for 15 years, if outside of the UK, or then the rest of the UK, and I highly doubt that Westminster would ever agree to that happening.

Westminster would also have another big leverage, and that would be trade between Scotland and England, or the rest of the UK. And still to date Scotland's main trading partner is still England.

An independent Scotland would mean leaving, not keeping some things and leaving.

It would mean leaving the UK, leaving behind NATO membership ( and the SNP's much hated submarines by the Royal Navy), leaving behind British citizenship, leaving behind a currency. Regardless of what the SNP promises, it won't be the SNP's choice.

For that in return you'd get Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport not sure on how many countries you could travel visa free in the beginning, a Scottish currency, however hard or soft that might be, maybe NATO membership at some point if other NATO members won't object, and maybe EU membership later on as well. If the Spanish won't object, they certainly don't want to set an example they have Catalonia to deal with.

It's time for the Scots to wake up and face the reality that the SNP has taken them for a ride for a long time.

The White Paper was comprehensive and it grew support from 32% to parity and beyond until Westminster grandees arrived (along with our own Unionist brethren) to bring the scare stories and promises they reneged on.

Ya if we want to talk about which side lied lets not forget remain promised loads of reforms from the devo-max option which it then reneged on.

Westminster might agree to a similar ruling as the Irish have now in the UK for the future Scottish citizens. In the best case scenario Scottish citizens won't be treated as aliens in the rest of the UK like the Irish, but that would certainly be up for discussion and negotiation.

However this ruling will be up to Westminster, not up to Scotland. If an independent Scotland want's to play hardball with Westminster, Westminster might also say no to that ruling.

Future Scottish citizens will most likely to certainly not be able to vote in any Westminster government, and any future Scottish passport might not give the same kind of visa free travel to other countries than the British passport would offer, but they might be able to live and work anywhere in the rest of the UK.

And then there are also other things to consider, like validity of driver's licenses, etc. I doubt that's even on the SNP's radar.

What would happen to all the Scots having a military career in the Territorial Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force? They would certainly have an issue with allegiances as well, possibly being forced to decide between one or the other, citizenship included.

That was myself who said that it's time for the Scots to wake up and face the reality that the SNP has taken them for a ride for a long time. I still stand to that opinion.

The Scots only liked Nicola for her charismatic attitude and probably also because she was another Scot with a Scottish accent who liked to take on Westminster but getting their money as well. This is most likely the cause why her approval rating was so high, despite the lack of results. The majority of Scots didn't even consider her results or more lack of it, and were blinded by independence dreams. At the same time Sturgeon probably made more money as a 1st minister than she would have if she stuck practicing law. She just needed to keep talking and keep the independence dream alive and going and collect her salary as a 1st minister whilst avoiding domestic matters.

The problem is also that an independent Scotland would have to live with many years of austerity as many things like free universities, or free prescription medicine, and whatever else will not be able to be financed anymore. The NHS Scotland will certainly not be better funded in an independent Scotland.

The question about a Scottish currency would be how strong or more how weak the currency would be. And they would have to provide their own currency, not the British pound, before they could consider joining the Euro. And then there is the question on whether a majority of Scots really wanted the Euro. There is no legal requirement in the EU to do so, but at some point it might be a necessity simply out of a business practicality.

The SNP is also rather on the left, and the left rarely attracted international big money investment. This would just add to an independent Scotland's troubles.