Scottish independence

I'm talking about the narrative around Brexit and the narrative around Scottish independence.

They are exactly the same.

Just as leavers said that everything after Brexit would be no problem, borders, access to markets etc, the supporters of Scottish independence do the same.

Citizenship ? no problem, keeping the pound and being in the EU ?, no problem, the border with England while in the Eu ?, no problem, getting back into the EU ?,no problem.

Scottish nationalist are guilty of the same cakeism as Brexiteers.

And why wouldn't they, they need to sell the positives, not the negatives or the boring details.

They are not the same.

When Scotland blames Westminster for something it's because Westminster actually controls Scotland.

When Brexiters blamed the EU it was made up bllsht.

For instance Westminster actually controls Scottish borders and passport colours.

The EU did not control the UK's borders or passport colour.

I'm not saying there will be no problems but problems were not what we were talking about.

You said.

"Everything bad about Brexit is blamed on the EU, everything bad about Scotland is blamed on London."

Blamed you were talking about blamed and you were wrong. Talking about the future problems is goal post moving.

Scottish independence is just an even dumber answer to a dumb Brexit.

The narrative is sadly exactly one and the same, maybe with a bit of more Scottish national undertones, focus on history, and more leaning to the left rather than the Brexiteers leaning to the right.

In the eyes of the SNP it's all London's fault, in the eyes of the Brexiteer's it's the EU's fault.

The rest is also the same, dance around the real issues and questions, promise voters the same, and tell the same lies, like how free the British economy will be outside the EU, the low taxes and the well funded NHS.

Just look at Sturgeon's domestic performance and you'll see what kind of issues an independent Scotland will be facing, even more to a greater extent. And, no this time, there won't be any money flowing in from Westminster to fund free universities or menstrual products for women and everything else.

Keeping the pound? No problem, eh? And if the Bank of England raises interest rates high to the needs of the rest of the UK's economy, Scotland would have to accept that as well? Citizenship wasn't even mentioned. Would Westminster really agree that Scots who want to leave, keep British citizenship? The SNP would of course say yes, but again it won't be their choice, it would be Westminster's choice. As citizens of the rest of the UK they could still vote in any Westminster election for 15 years, if outside of the UK, or then the rest of the UK, and I highly doubt that Westminster would ever agree to that happening.

Westminster would also have another big leverage, and that would be trade between Scotland and England, or the rest of the UK. And still to date Scotland's main trading partner is still England.

An independent Scotland would mean leaving, not keeping some things and leaving.

It would mean leaving the UK, leaving behind NATO membership ( and the SNP's much hated submarines by the Royal Navy), leaving behind British citizenship, leaving behind a currency. Regardless of what the SNP promises, it won't be the SNP's choice.

For that in return you'd get Scottish citizenship and a Scottish passport not sure on how many countries you could travel visa free in the beginning, a Scottish currency, however hard or soft that might be, maybe NATO membership at some point if other NATO members won't object, and maybe EU membership later on as well. If the Spanish won't object, they certainly don't want to set an example they have Catalonia to deal with.

It's time for the Scots to wake up and face the reality that the SNP has taken them for a ride for a long time.

The White Paper was comprehensive and it grew support from 32% to parity and beyond until Westminster grandees arrived (along with our own Unionist brethren) to bring the scare stories and promises they reneged on.

Ya if we want to talk about which side lied lets not forget remain promised loads of reforms from the devo-max option which it then reneged on.

Westminster might agree to a similar ruling as the Irish have now in the UK for the future Scottish citizens. In the best case scenario Scottish citizens won't be treated as aliens in the rest of the UK like the Irish, but that would certainly be up for discussion and negotiation.

However this ruling will be up to Westminster, not up to Scotland. If an independent Scotland want's to play hardball with Westminster, Westminster might also say no to that ruling.

Future Scottish citizens will most likely to certainly not be able to vote in any Westminster government, and any future Scottish passport might not give the same kind of visa free travel to other countries than the British passport would offer, but they might be able to live and work anywhere in the rest of the UK.

And then there are also other things to consider, like validity of driver's licenses, etc. I doubt that's even on the SNP's radar.

What would happen to all the Scots having a military career in the Territorial Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force? They would certainly have an issue with allegiances as well, possibly being forced to decide between one or the other, citizenship included.

Correct. It's like a kid in a rich family saying "well if I moved out, I'd be rich as well!". No kid, your parents are rich, not you. They may have some of their own wealth, but it's not the same, not by a long shot.

Another issue, as someone else once pointed out, is how Scotland would fare within the EU, if Spain etc let them join ( over fears of Spanish break up). Spain thinks that letting an independent Scotland into the EU would make Catalonia feel that there is precedent for them to leave Spain and join the EU. Say an Independent Scotland did join the EU, it (Scotland) would be less influential than the UK and so it may be less involved in influencing the EU. I think it's safe to say Scotland+England+Wales+Northern Ireland would have been more influential than Scotland on its own. When Ireland was in the EU, the UK had our back and as it was the second biggest contributer to the EEC / EU. Irish MEPs found it natural to chat to UK MEPs at coffee time etc. The UK made sure Ireland done well out of it, as it was in the UKs own interest in so many ways to have a prosperous, thriving country as its closest neighbour ( and the one it shared a land border with). Now that the UK has left, Ireland is now a net contribor to the EU. An independent Scotland would have to pay into a fund for the EU which is split between all member states, including developing ones from Eastern Europe. Scotland would be lucky to break even.

Because the Scots get more from England than the Scots pay in tax themselves, its a no brainer. As someone else said, It's time for the Scots to wake up and face the reality that the SNP has taken them for a ride for a long time

That was myself who said that it's time for the Scots to wake up and face the reality that the SNP has taken them for a ride for a long time. I still stand to that opinion.

The Scots only liked Nicola for her charismatic attitude and probably also because she was another Scot with a Scottish accent who liked to take on Westminster but getting their money as well. This is most likely the cause why her approval rating was so high, despite the lack of results. The majority of Scots didn't even consider her results or more lack of it, and were blinded by independence dreams. At the same time Sturgeon probably made more money as a 1st minister than she would have if she stuck practicing law. She just needed to keep talking and keep the independence dream alive and going and collect her salary as a 1st minister whilst avoiding domestic matters.

The problem is also that an independent Scotland would have to live with many years of austerity as many things like free universities, or free prescription medicine, and whatever else will not be able to be financed anymore. The NHS Scotland will certainly not be better funded in an independent Scotland.

The question about a Scottish currency would be how strong or more how weak the currency would be. And they would have to provide their own currency, not the British pound, before they could consider joining the Euro. And then there is the question on whether a majority of Scots really wanted the Euro. There is no legal requirement in the EU to do so, but at some point it might be a necessity simply out of a business practicality.

The SNP is also rather on the left, and the left rarely attracted international big money investment. This would just add to an independent Scotland's troubles.

Spain would stop independent Scotland joining the EU in much the same way as Spain stopped Croatia, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania joining after they split from Yugoslavia and Russia. It was a disgrace the way those countries weren't allowed join.

This is sadly where you are wrong. It is not exactly the same terms. Irish citizens can only vote in UK elections if they are residing in the UK. UK citizens outside of the UK can vote for another 15 years in any Westminster elections as absentees. Irish who lived in the UK at some point and returned to say Ireland, certainly can't. If Scotland had the same arrangement, a future Scottish citizen would have to reside in the rest of the UK. This said, if a future Scottish citizen had the same arrangement as an Irish citizen in the UK has now.

The UK or rest of the UK government would certainly not want a Scot living in an independent Scotland to vote in a Westminster election. Whether they would strip all Scots of British citizenship or not, and state they would have to be Scottish citizens, we don't know. This would be regardless of what the SNP is claiming or saying. It's simply not down to a future Scotland anymore what Westminster decides, after all Scotland would have left and judging by your posts, you do want to leave.

If you are or anybody here is so much in favour of an independent Scotland, pls remember, that you WANT to LEAVE, and this means leaving everything behind the UK offers.

Leaving, means leaving behind NATO, the TA, the RAF, the Royal Navy, citizenship, most likely the British pound and any kind of free trade with England, Wales and most likely Northern Ireland and all the money from Westminster to Edinburgh.

After all, you want to leave and leaving means certain things from the UK won't be taken for granted anymore or only there at the benevolence of a "foreign" government in Westminster.

Agree. Seems like a good time to reset and focus. No leader is bigger than the movement itself.

That is a good point. With an independent Scotland, Westminster would certainly have less seats to begin with. And yes, it's a first past the post system.

How this could be handled, we don't know. I would suppose that this would be up for discussion. It's unprecedented. I don't think that they could be excluded in any sort of referendum as a referendum isn't there to form a government. I always thought it would be handled similarly as if a British citizen were to move overseas and retains the right to vote for another 15 years, according to current legislation.

On the citizenship question it's also, if one parent is British, so is the child, regardless of where it is born. So even if there was a cut off date (and I would speculate there would be one), as to when Scottish citizenship would kick in, their children born after would still be British, again, also down to current legislation.

Incidentally, the Union Jack would also have to be changed.

Northern Ireland remains in the UK, thats always been the justification for keeping St Patrick's Cross in the Union Flag (its not a Jack), as well as the Harp of Ireland in the Royal Standard.

If Ireland were to reunify under the Republic and/or Scotland were to declare independence, the Union Flag becomes redundant and so too the Royal Standard. Although the Scots may choose to retain the Monarch as Head of State.