Are Mick Wallace and Clare Daly Irelands greatest shame?

CalamariFritti · 16-02-2023 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250073#Comment_120250073

You call it realpolitik she calls it bullsh1t & hypocrisy when she hears it in the same sentence with 'values' & 'democracy'. And she's right to IMO.

It's not like she/they will able to change anything or convince anyone. So why the anger towards her?

pixelburp · 16-02-2023 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250183#Comment_120250183

You think democracy isn't worth fighting for? You think it happens through rhetoric and high minded ideals? You think the EU, including Poland, Latvia, Finland, Lithuania who all borders with Ukraine or Russia and shares a common history, should stand idly by?

Well. Yes, you said as much; let Russia invade whoever.

And again: who has been saying the weapons would save lives? Stop moving the goalposts each post. Unless you meant the surface-to-air systems sent to Ukraine which ... Yes. They save lives, shooting down the drones aimed at civilian infrastructure. Only one side here is committing terrorist acts and war crimes on Ukraine's civilian population, on a daily basis.

Yet Daly waffles about peace and the warmongering West, lip service towards the suffering of Ukraine, and chooses to put herself forward as a contrarian opinion at odds with a situation pretty clear cut. Apologising for Putin's late life mania invites a robust response because at best she's a contrarian, at worst a possible shill.

alias no.9 · 16-02-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249944#Comment_120249944

There's enough evidence from Russian occupied territories that men of fighting age would simply be mobilised and forced to fight for Russia in Putins next advance be that on Poland, the Baltics, Georgia, where ever.

The notion that a Ukrainian surrender would have meant peace or even less displaced people is laughable. Ukrainians don't want to be at war but they'd rather fight than be part of Russia.

CalamariFritti · 16-02-2023 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250289#Comment_120250289

Well. Yes, you said as much; let Russia invade whoever.

Not 'whoever' and they wouldn't anyway, but yes, I did.

And how bad would that have been compared to what state the Ukraine is in now? Objectively now, lets leave all that patriotic nonsense aside.

Nody · 16-02-2023 9:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250016#Comment_120250016

Because this is what you are ACTIVELY supporting by not standing up to Russia.

In the town of Balakliya, which the Russians occupied for six months, forensics specialists, human rights activists, criminal law experts, and Ukrainian investigators found extensive evidence of war crimes and torture. During the Russian occupation, the Russian troops used a two-story building named "BalDruk" (after a former publishing company which had an office there before the war) as a prison and a torture center. The Russians also used the police station building across the street for torture. Around 40 people were held in torture chambers during the occupation and subjected to various forms of violence, including electrocution, beatings, and mutilation. One of those arrested (because he had a picture of his brother in a Ukrainian army uniform in his home) and tortured reported hearing screams through the walls. At least several Ukrainian prisoners died as a result of the torture. Aleksander Kulik, head of the information department of the Derhachi city council, stated that several young women were subjected to gang rapes that lasted for several days.

That's a single town; now play that out accross every single town and village captured by Russia. That is what YOU are supporting by claiming no weapons should be sent to Ukraine because that is what Russia is doing right now in those occupied territories. I'd post you the pictures but it would go against Boards policies. It's all nice to sit in your ivory tower and say it should be peace and all but the reality on the ground is Russia invaded Ukraine and is literally raping and killing their way across it's lands. You have one of two options; either accept that it's ok for "peace" for Russia to do so or support Ukraine to kick the Russians out. Because in reality those are the only two actual positions here; yes peace would be nice but Russia don't play nice, they don't stick to the agreements they sign and they sure as heck don't stop doing the raping, torture and killing because you don't like war. So either you support Russia and their behaviour by silently standing by (as a certain First they came poem...) and wringing your hands because peace is better or you support Ukraine by giving them the support they need to kick Russia out. It's really that black and white in this case; but hey they are not going to torture you so that makes it ok then "for peace" after all...

CalamariFritti · 16-02-2023 9:06pm

Because this is what you are ACTIVELY supporting by not standing up to Russia.

Bullsh1t I am. Spare me the 'if you're not with us you're against us' line. That trick is as old as the book. And makes for a very poor argument.

Nody · 16-02-2023 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250432#Comment_120250432

YOU are the one saying Ukraine should not get any weapons in the name of peace; YOU are then actively supporting the Russian invasion by removing Ukraine's only chance to defend themselves against exactly what I'm calling out as happening and that's very well documented. You call that BS; I call that reality on the ground. But by all means do provide an alternative to Ukraine getting the weapons they need to kick Russia out; do please tell us the masterplan on how to end the war, the rapes and the torture that Russia is executing right now in occupied territory. I'd love to hear your high level ideas and by all means share them with us since clearly you are so much smarter than the rest of us who support Ukraine's right to defend themselves from invaders and kicking them out, you do have an alternative plan since you're so opposed to the current one, no?

CalamariFritti · 16-02-2023 9:19pm

No master plan needed, Clare Daly says what it takes to end this. There is no defeating Russia unless you're willing to gamble everything. Do you want to do that?

Donald Trump · 16-02-2023 9:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250469#Comment_120250469

It's the equivalent of telling a child that the best way to end their bullying is to hand over all their lunch money to the bully today without even any protest. Because that is what the bully wants and sure once they have it today, they'll be happy and go away and never bother them again.

keynes · 16-02-2023 9:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250374#Comment_120250374

Yes, I'm sure all Ukrainians are delighted to have their homes flattened, lives decimated, and sons killed and maimed just so they can be led by one corrupt megalomaniac instead of another.

Nody · 16-02-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250469#Comment_120250469

I see, so your answer is you don't have an answer or counter argument yet my argument is BS when I claim standing by silently and wanting no weapons to Ukraine is to support Russia. Then you attempt to move the goal posts and claim the whole world is in danger (with out anything to back it up as usual) and that to defeat Russia in Ukraine can only be done with WW3. Hyperbole much?

Russia’s costly military campaign in Ukraine has likely significantly depleted Russian equipment and manpower reserves necessary to sustain a successful large-scale offensive in eastern Ukraine. UK Defense Secretary Ben Wallace told the BBC that the UK had not seen the Russian “massing of a single force to punch through in a big offensive” and noted that Russians are now trying to advance in Donbas at a “huge cost.”[1] Wallace estimated that Russia could have committed up to 97 percent of its army to the fight in Ukraine and that its combat effectiveness has decreased by 40 percent due to an “almost First World War level of attrition” that measures Russian advances in meters in human wave attacks.

Seen any nuclear weapons in Ukraine recently making them achiving that? Perhaps a couple of nukes were snuck in without anyone notice? Or maybe, just maybe, Ukraine actually with conventional weapons supplied by the West to help them defend their country actually have the capability to kick Russia out after all...

Hence; here's something for you to do since this is not CA is to walk away and come back with an argument and facts to support your position instead of constantly moving goal posts and post hyperbole. Find that alternative plan; and heck you don't have to think it up either but as all you need to do is ask Mick and Clare to explain it to you and you can post it here. I'm sure they will be able to provide you a great plan with facts to back it up after all and we can discuss it; because so far you are very light on the facts parts...

Danzy · 16-02-2023 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250083#Comment_120250083

Cop the fook on.

Brussels Sprout · 16-02-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250486#Comment_120250486

No of course they are not delighted. This is a living nightmare for them. They fight because they think that the alternative is worse. If they didn't then they wouldn't fight. No prompting from the USA could force them to do so (Exhibit A: The Afghan Army in 2021)

Nice bit of false equivalency there too by the way. Ukraine and Russia and their leaders are nothing alike - and that's something that Russia just cannot accept.

Yes Ukraine has struggled since Independence but it was streets ahead of Russia prior to this invasion. Freedom House give Ukraine a ranking of 61 which is between Mexico and North Macedonia. It had free elections and a free press. In contrast Russia is a 19, which is between Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe. No free press since 2000. No free elections since....well ever really since even the ones in the '90s were deeply flawed. Since the invasion things have only gotten more repressive there whilst Ukraine turns more toward the West.

Russian apologists love to point to Ukraine's history of curruption, for most of its history, whilst completely their efforts to tackle it in recent years. Meanwhile Russia continues is so corrupt that it's army has been flogging basic supplies, ammunition, equipment, tyres, meal rations and pretty much anything they could get their hands on - all to the detriment of their own fighting abilities.

Of course, Ukraine know all of this better than any of us could ever know. There are still Ukrainians alive who lived through their equivalent of The Great Famine. There are many who remember the repressions of Soviet times. They especially remember the series of terrible Presidents post-Independence and the corruption and looting that ensued. Unlike the Russian people though, they can see an alternative. That is why they are fighting.

pixelburp · 16-02-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250469#Comment_120250469

Says who? It's nearly a year into a war Russia thought would be over within the first attack (to the extent they packed dress uniforms for the parade), and here we are, Ukraine still exists. Precisely because its allies chose to arm the country sufficient to defend itself. At some points words won't suffice.

You keep saying you can't beat Russia but offer nothing to remedy the situation. Just hand wringing about death caused by Russia invading in the first place. This isn't some disputed panhandle a couple of countries can claim, it's a whole country Putin wrote a literal essay about being Historical Russia. To Putin, Ukraine has no right to self-determination.

But again, you can't win so don't try? Just take Ukraine, sure it'll be grand. Don't worry Poland, Latvia, Moldova, just look weak. It's ironic you cheer a woman lambasting Western warmongering when your own attitude is as smugly and glibly Western in its dismissal of Ukraine's right to defend itself. Who are we to dictate Ukraine's path?

VinLieger · 16-02-2023 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250432#Comment_120250432

Theres no nuance to this war, it is literally the case that if you support Ukraine surrendering you are supporting the raping and pillaging of its people.

Larbre34 · 16-02-2023 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250432#Comment_120250432

Who's arguing, its a settled matter that you're talking shyte.

You don't appease fascists, you stamp on their toes until their bones turn to dust and when they're distracted by that, you headbutt their nose so hard that they bleed out their eyes.

The first best time to stop Hitler, was when he annexed Austria in March 1938.

The second best time to stop him was when he occupied the Czech Sudetenland in October 1939

The third, and really last best time, was when he invaded the remainder of Czechoslovakia in March 1939.

When he rolled into Poland in September, it was too late and it took the next six years and only 80 million deaths to bring the curtain down on early 20th Century fascist imperialism.

Yet here we are. And every life lost since the failure to stop Putin in 2014 and turn his bullshyt ambitions to dust, then and there, was a waste.

Fascists aggressors always have to be stopped. You can stop them early and cheap or later and costly, but for absolute certain, you'll be doing it eventually.

And thats a settled argument.

CalamariFritti · 16-02-2023 10:53pm

Ah well I'm glad I'm told now.

Jesus

Larbre34 · 16-02-2023 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250786#Comment_120250786

Jesus can't help you friend, your cognition is as good as its going to get.

maebee · 17-02-2023 12:29am

Why don't Wallace and Daly leave the evil West and go and live in their Russian Utopia?

They really should because neither one will ever be elected to represent us ever again, thankfully.

realitykeeper · 17-02-2023 10:45am

I am on the same page as Clare Daly regarding the war in Ukraine. On the Israel/Palatine issue, I would differ from her but I keep an open mind. To be honest, I think Ben Nethanyahu makes a lot of sense. The Palestinian perspective is something I would like to hear debated between Hammas and the Israeli government in order to acquire a better understanding.

Jinglejangle69 · 17-02-2023 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251787#Comment_120251787

Which page is that?

realitykeeper · 17-02-2023 10:59am

Mainstream leaders here in the western world (that does not include Ms Daly or Mr Wallace) are becoming more benighted in my opinion. In fact they surprise me by their waywardness more and more.

The COVID lockdowns is one example. Another is Michael Martin saying the Taliban could come to Ireland when they were released from Guantanamo prison. Now for the cherry on the cake, WW3. Why are they so determined to start this war with our Russian friends?

realitykeeper · 17-02-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251805#Comment_120251805

The correct one.

Jinglejangle69 · 17-02-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251907#Comment_120251907

Which is what?

Genuine question.

McFly85 · 17-02-2023 11:39am

The idea of Ukraine just allowing Russia to swallow them whole in the name of peace is such a bizarre and flawed take. Ultimately what you are saying is that Russia is a bigger military power so just let them take your country.

However, if the US decided to march up to Russian borders with some rubbish excuse about wanting to liberate Vladivostok I doubt you would be calling for Russians to lay down their arms and let the US roll in. They are the biggest military power in the world after all.

pixelburp · 17-02-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252008#Comment_120252008

Meanwhile, there's the blindingly obvious historical example where tiny Ireland went up against The British Empire at its zenith, the largest Empire ever seen(?) - and made London leave through sheer stubbornness.

It's quite galling to read what I presume is an Irish-person, argue that Ukraine simply roll over, 'cos Russia is sooo large and something-something NATO.

Brussels Sprout · 17-02-2023 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251915#Comment_120251915

The main thing uniting Russia and the modern state of Israel right now is that they both appear to think that they have a divine right to their neighbour's territory and are quite happy to steal it by force.

I guess the poster has a respect for thievery and brutality.

blanch152 · 17-02-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250469#Comment_120250469

Having heard everything you have to say on this issue, I'm thinking of learning Russian so when they come for us, I will be prepared.

Dohnjoe · 17-02-2023 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252867#Comment_120252867

Exactly, she isn't anti-war in the slightest, she's anti-US/West. A current affairs and history reductionist who sees the world only through the lens of that black/white narrative.

realitykeeper · 18-02-2023 4:53am

Mick Wallace and Clare Daly want unconditional peace with Russia. I understand how people might ask how anyone can think like that. What if you are faced with an aggressor who keeps attacking, how can unconditional peace be possible? And, that is how most people see Russia.

People like myself, (and Wallace and Daly) have a number of reasons for wanting unconditional peace. We take a different view on who the aggressor is. We considder events that happened in 1812, 1941 and 2014. We look at what was agreed to end the Cold War and in the Minsk agreement and compare that to what has happened after those agreements were signed.

But, by far the biggest reason I want unconditional peace is because of what modern warfare is capable of. If people considdered that, the call for unconditional peace would be deafening. Not everyone has an expansive bunker full of mod cons. I don`t doubt Putin has such a facility but so do a lot of rich and powerful people in the west. I am not one of those people who think the profit motive is what is driving this war because the people who make the most terrible weapons would not be thinking about profit. They would be thinking about long term survival.

Are Mick Wallace and Clare Daly Irelands greatest shame?

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