Scottish independence

SNP wanted a referendum before Labour get back in London. Labour could end up in office for a decade and the SNP know that feelings for independence reduce when Labour are in government.

Part of the SNP identity is to criticise the Tories. They find it harder to criticise Labour. The last Labour PM was Scottish.

So it seems that a referendum is off the agenda for a generation.

This was supposed to happen after the 2014 referendum. The SNP have been using the issue as some sort of crusade when the public seem not as interested.

They already have a region system set up but it never really got off the ground other than for stats and EU elections.

The originally had limited devolved power but they were stripped by guess who ?

The "levelling up, northern powerhouse" Tories.

"Scots don't have a natural dislike to England or English people, in the same that is very apparent in Ireland"

Hahahhahhahaha are you absolutely joking. I know half of them want the union but it doesn't mean the like the English.

I do, in the exact same way I don't blame the Irish people for the actions of whatever government might be in power here.

I enjoy some English media very much and many here do.

I have no interest in the Royals but many here do.

English colonialism was carried out at the behest of English governments by many different people's including our own.

I just never hear English people criticising Irish domestic issues. I think Irish people would have a fit about it. Sure we get offended when they can't pronounce our Irish names.

I just can't see how the almost daily commentary on England is anything other than veiled anti English sentiment.

Talking negatively about England daily is specific to some Irish people.

I really dislike when posters come into threads trying to shut down discussions based on accusations of racism, tribalism or nationalism. The idea of a new country being created right next door is of course of interest to us. An independent Scotland could easily compete against the ROI with a low tax strategy for example. I doubt an independent Scotland will ever happen but the thread shouldn't be diverted into becoming an English victim mentality thread .

Yes no doubt about it the Welsh have got the short end of the stick to say the least from the English.

No question they have a ways to go for Welsh independence to be a real possibility any time soon. But there is no doubt also that an independence movement in Wales has been energized by the fallout from Brexit and the reality of Irish reunification and Scottish independence being very much real possibilities. When the Scottish do regain their independence it will be very interesting to see how the Welsh react in the subsequent years.

What I have always noticed about this thread is that it's as if Irish people with a nationalist outlook are trying to "stick it to the Brits" with their enthusiasm for Scottish independence.

They seem to think that the Scots should have the same attitude to the English as we Irish had when we got independence.

But it's not like that at all.

As you point out, Ireland's independence was only 65 years after the famine, the Irish were always regarded as inferior by the rest of the UK, and there was a very obvious religious difference at a time when religion was a much bigger deal than it is today.

And even given all of the above it still took an armed rebellion and the fallout from it to turn the public towards support for independence.

Prior to 1916 Irish people were pretty benign about being in the empire.

You have none of this with Scotland.

The last religious wars they fought were back in the 1600s and that was because the Scots didn't think the English were protestant enough.

The last uprising came in 1746.

Independence movements usually need a hook, something to show how different they are, it's usually religion or a language or some local trait that distinguishes them from the country or union they are trying to leave.

It's really hard to find that in the Scottish independence movement.

Religion is not a big deal, even though they have their own language it's not the main spoken or written language of the people.

So what is Scotlands hook ?

I don't think they have one.

Yes, some good points and it should be noted too that Scotland has a substantial Protestant population and people who were traditionally pro-union and pro-monarchy.

The one thing though that makes independence much more likely is the rise of 'English nationalism'. Many of the English Brexity types don't even seem to like the UK, don't identify with being 'British' and give the impression that they would be more happy to see Scotland and NI leave.

A very valid point on the border between Wales and England no question about it. A lot of work to do though I think by the independence movement within Wales before that even comes close to being a real live issue the border that is and what it would be. But nonetheless it is interesting to watch the first significant flowers of a Welsh independence movement developing.

That was very much about Brexit. Labour's vote has predominantly collapsed in Scotland under criticism of them being Tory-lite. Someone of the Corbyn wing of the party - who would support rejoining the EU, unlike Corbyn - would be the best way to combat the Labour slide. It doesn't look possible in the short-term. Starmer is opposed to Corbyn-style politics and is terrified of upsetting the working class English who voted for Brexit.

Decent enough piece here from the BBC about Scottish independence.

The conclusion: The SNP will have to play the long game and hope that the current cohort of young voters that currently show the greatest support for independence remain supporting it while the middle aged and older opponents literally die out.

Then if support is consistently in the 60% range for a long period Westminster can't deny a referendum.

And probably by that time it will be another generation on from 2014 anyway.