Peter O'Mahony

I'd be really curious to see the detail on that.

I thought O'Mahony had a solid game, and had already said elsewhere I'd retain him in the team this weekend, but to me if the statistics or the model is telling you Peter O'Mahony had a better game on Saturday than Caelan Doris, then there is something wrong with the model.

I'm also confused about the "no mistakes" classification, as he did have a missed tackle (in addition to 5 made). Is this a situation akin to how Ringrose typically shoots the line where if you show defensive linespeed aggression and effectively force the ball carrier to make a decision it doesn't count as a mistake?

Doris and VDF had 19 & 17 tackles respectively and missed 0.

I don't doubt that an element of the statistics is down to the roles the players are fulfilling, but it's still unusual to think you can play a more limited role well and be deemed to have had a better game than the guy who plays a starring role well.

Nah, come on. He’s been playing well etc, but he’s clearly the least influential / most replaceable of the three. He’s there on merit now, but the other two are world class players.

This intensity stuff is a nonsense too. He is less involved in the game than the other two. I know the point about him playing in wider channels means he has lower tackle stats and lower carries than his back row partners, but it's also because he's not as good a carrier or tackler than those two either.

He has significantly less ruck involvements than VdF or Doris, and doesn't play with anything resembling the intensity Van der Flier in particular is asked to play at. Watch Ireland's defensive sets - VdF is invariably the one doing the traditional openside role of charging at the opposition 10, energy sapping stuff, that a lot of the time doesn't generate a stat.

Claiming that POM comes off the field after 60 mins because he's spent after putting in more or greater intensity than those other players is patently untrue.

I don't want this to be a thing of beating up on the guy (O'Mahony). I think he's a great player who has been central to a lot of Ireland's massive games, but you're inviting this forensic criticism of his game by trying to claim he's something he isn't, or that he is as important as VdF or Doris.

There is also a significant slice of "provincial BS" in your arguments here too, as it feels like this is coming from your position as a Munster fan rather than anything else.

Yeah, actually I did go and specifically look at the performance of the 3 starting backrowers for the French game.

For the period up to the 56:08 mark when O'Mahony was on the field; I counted each player's 'involvement' in a series of play, counting tackles, rucks hit, carries. I didn't count scrums or mauls, since all three players are involved in these invariably (there wasn't a particularly high amount of either in this game in any event).

For the 56 mins; O'Mahony had 34 involvements, of which 6 were negative involvements (3 missed tackles, 2 spilled lineouts and 1 penalty concession). He hit 15 rucks by my reckoning, of which 14 were offensive rucks (Ireland in possession). He made 7 tackles. O'Mahony carried 5 times for 3 metres, and passed the ball once. He also had the latch on Andrew Porter for his try.

Josh van der Flier had 48 involvements, of which 2 were negative (1 penalty concession and 1 missed tackle). He hit 25 rucks during this period, of which 17 were offensive and 8 were defensive. During this sequence, Van der Flier carried 7 times, and passed twice.

Caelan Doris had 44 involvements, of which 3 were negative (1 spilled lineout, 2 missed tackles). He also hit 25 rucks, split 11 offensive and 14 defensive. Over this period, he had carried 11 times, and passed 3 times. He had one turnover, but I believe should have had two more.

So yeah, I think it's fair to say both Doris and VdF had significantly more ruck involvements. It's not hard to see when you watch the way Ireland play, and the positions O'Mahony typically takes up. He's often one man in from the touchline, and the play at times just doesn't drift towards him. I do think from observing the game like this (literally ruck to ruck) it's noticeable how clever he is, and how judicious he is in terms of his involvements (he doesn't fold into many rucks where he isn't going to make a difference), and had one really notable clean out (after Sexton's break down the left touchline and the ball back infield).

Josh van der Flier's energy and workrate is off the charts. He is proximate to virtually everything. Just hunts the ball around the field, and must cover an astronomical amount of grass. He had a couple of monster clear outs during this sequence too, and is really impactful in his clear outs.

Doris' tackle stats were low by his normal numbers in this game, but his involvement otherwise, showing up to carry, ruck and link the play is so noticeable. He has obviously been empowered by management as well to hunt for turnovers, because it's noticeable how often he goes after opposition ball (only Beirne and Porter noted for similar impact).

Finally, when observing like this, the impact of James Ryan in particular is so evident. He hits an astronomical amount of rucks, especially when Ireland are attacking, and makes a huge amount of tackles. Through two games this season, he's made 30 tackles, missing 0.

I'm going to do similar analysis on the Welsh game when I get a chance.

No, as far as I can see the data doesn't exist, or isn't freely available anywhere. By all means feel free to go and collate it yourself if you're doubting the credibility of it, or my "independence".

I'm the one who actually did the work and looked at this, but you're giving your "impression" of it.

Once again, though, I'm not the one slating him here. I posted the statement about him having less ruck involvements in response to a statement that he invariably is the one who comes off (which isn't necessarily true in and of itself anyway) simply because he is expending the most energy, or is the most involved during the period he's on the field, something which I think is demonstrably not the case.

Or are you agreeing with that statement? Do you think he's generally as visible and as impactful as Van der Flier and Doris?

He's a really good player, and very important to us, but he isn't at the level of the other two in the back row alongside, and is more replaceable. I don't think that's an outlandish statement, and don't really understand the fuss around it.

Also, I didn't catch your edit here till later - but no this stat isn't correct:

And even if we grant your stats above as accurate, POM is hitting 23.5 rucks per 80 mins, vs 25 for both VdF and Doris.

As I made clear, those stats are just for the period for when O'Mahony is on the pitch, so are exactly comparable. O'Mahony hit 15 rucks per 56 mins, while Doris and Van der Flier hit 25 rucks per 56 minutes.

Doris hit 42 rucks in his full 80 mins, while VdF hit 45 rucks in his. Your extrapolation also assumes O'Mahony's energy levels will be maintained for the full 80, something I'd dispute as he appeared to be visibly lagging a bit in his last 5-8 mins on the field.

Here's an independent source for you too, that guy who for some reason OTB are bringing on in recent times. Based on his numbers (this is pre the France game) O'Mahony hits a lot less rucks than Van Der Flier or Doris too:

This post was titled "How Ireland's back row divide up their workload" - and his implication is that O'Mahony's largest contribution is his carrying, followed by rucking.

However, if you look at the full season of 2022 (there's a larger sample size for you too), O'Mahony carried only 40 times for 115m (2.9m per carry), from his 540 mins (10 games, 7 starts).

Josh van der Flier carried 81 times for 222m (2.7m per carry), in his 773 mins (10 games, 10 starts), and Caelan Doris carried 95 times for 317m (3.3m per carry, from his 797 mins (11 games, 11 starts).

On a per minute basis, O'Mahony carries the least frequently (one carry per 13.5 minutes, versus VDF 1 per 9.5 mins, and Doris 1 per 8.3 mins).

He also notably tackles less than the other two (he's on 64 (88% accuracy) versus JVDF on 159 (94% accuracy) and Doris 141 (96% accuracy).

So, if this is saying carrying is the biggest part of his workload, but we know he carries less than the other two, and rucking forms significantly bigger parts of their workloads, then it is very safe to say that he rucks less than them.