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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There shouldn’t be any talk of moving Doris out of position to accommodate Coombes. 

    To be fair, I don't think I've seen any suggest as much.

    And while I do think there is something to your analogy, I also think there's an element of people seeing Coombes' try-scoring record from short range and assuming he's just all about power. That's never been the case; his passing and especially offloading has always been a huge part of his game.

    I do think there is something to what you're saying tho. For example, under Schmidt you used to hear that POM and VdF couldn't play in the same back-row. You don't really hear that any more and I think that's a) partly because of the game we're now playing and b) partly because we now have more power elsewhere in the pack, specifically from our front-row options.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, I wasn't making a comparison of Coombes to the "big centre forward" type of player, I was just using it as an example of a scenario where a guy might be doing really well within a certain system / style, but might still not be what the coaches want.

    I have seen a handful of posters suggest on this this looking at a backrow of Doris at 6 and Coombes at 8, and I would resist that. Doris plays his best rugby for Ireland and Leinster at 8, and shouldn't be moved from there when he's playing the way he's playing.

    Ultimately, to me the only logical answer is that the coaches don't necessarily see him as a stylistic fit for how they want the backrow to look. The Irish coaches aren't oblivious to how well he's been playing, and this Irish coaching ticket have absolutely shown a willingness to make changes and reward form.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And you could have said the same of Conan, until he got his chance in that England game due to injuries elsewhere, and then established himself as first choice 8 for a season. I think there's a chance Coombes could force his way into the 23 if he got a chance.

    Ultimately, Coombes wouldn't be in the squad if they felt the stylistic difference was so profound that he had nothing to offer this team in this system; he clearly does. (And I would argue he's not as poor a stylistic fit as is sometimes made out).



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I think they mean this weekend. However that’s missing the fact that no one who was selected to play was released back this weekend.

    I think this boils down to what the coaches want. Conan has produced that and continues to do so. Can Coombes do it. What’s going on in training will tell the management that. If he doesn’t get a chance during the 6N. He will in the warm ups. However we are chasing a Grand Slam, so are likely to go as strong as possible in every game now.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    That was always likely tho, and I'm not sure we can read too much into it.

    For example, last season we had Italy in Round 3 as well. Casey, Hume, Treadwell were all sent back and played for their Province but were then named on the bench vs Italy the week later.

    I'd like to see something similar with Coombes this year.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg




  • Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭roverjoyce


    Jobs for the boys, how can they justify giving a 34 year old an extra year after a world cup cycle

    Is this to keep Munster happy so they don't have to pay him



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Conan doesn't own his spot. If there's another player who is in better form, then he should lose his place. Conan has been mediocre this season.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think there is anything as dramatic as a stylistic difference so profound that he has nothing to offer, but there has to be some reason why he isn't in the mix. He's in the squads, but hasn't really managed to push on beyond the wider squad.

    I remember his first start for Ireland, the 71-10 win against the US way back in July 2021, where he was was picked at 8 and Doris at 6, and both went well that day (albeit it's leagues below the level required). Since then though, even though his domestic form has improved, he's not managed to press on with Ireland.

    He made the trip to NZ, and played okay in the midweek games, and obviously was in for the NZ A game in November but missed the other games.

    Genuinely, why do you think he's not in the 23 so far?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No one is saying he owns his spot, but there are clear inconsistencies (even on this thread) with the way you treat commentary on Peter O'Mahony's performances (and whether he should be dropped or not) and how you treat Jack Conan.

    For Ireland, Jack Conan has gone really well in both of the games in 2023, and made a good impact in both games. This Ireland team (and especially our back row) are playing outstandingly well, so the argument for leaving it as is is persuasive.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    A lot of the discussion on Coombes / Conan is missing one very important factor: experience. It’s the commodity that is most underrated by internet posters who usually just want to see the shiny new thing, especially if he’s from their province. But coaches will always value experience much more highly. Nobody outside the camp will see how much more mental energy a guy playing his first Six Nations match would use up vs. Somebody who has played 30-40 times before, but the coaches will.

    Anyone who has been involved in coaching or management of a team will know that coaches have to balance up all sorts of competing factors: form, balance of the team, partnerships, personalities, experience. Watching on the telly, we can see from above all others, so we tend to massively overweight it in our assessments, but it’s only one of several factors going into team selection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    And c vdf has added huge physical elements to his game. Example carrying.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Is this to keep Munster happy so they don't have to pay him

    No.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The WUMs aren't even trying to be subtle anymore



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's not just domestic form tho; he's playing brilliant in Europe too against teams of the calibre of Toulouse.

    He's obviously not in the 23 because the coaches prefer Conan at the moment; it's axiomatic. But coaches decisions aren't infallible. And as I said, it was the same with Conan; he was outside the 15 until he wasn't. And he needed a bit of luck to go his way with injuries, Coombes might need something like that to go his way too.

    Genuine question for you; do you think there's a credible argument for Coombes to be in the 23? There clearly is imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I wasn’t disagreeing, just pointing out the poster was referring to this weekend and not November.

    Coombes might well make an appearance this weekend. Playing for Munster won’t have affected that decision either way I don’t think. There is also a chance he may not though. It all depends on what he was asked to show he can do in camp.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    For what its worth, I would have Coombes in the 23 this weekend. That being said this:

    Playing for Munster won’t have affected that decision either way I don’t think

    is very much true. The game at the weekend was a nice run out for him, but utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ah ya, I'm not saying you were disagreeing. I'm just pointing out that the precedence for who was sent back to play for their Provinces doesn't really exclude them from selection this weekend.

    I just think saying "he's doing / not doing what the coaches ask of him" rules out any interesting wider discussion around selection. For any player.

    It's also pretty binary; some of these decisions could be pretty marginal. (If, for example, Conan got injured and Coombes was selected on the bench, is he then suddenly doing what the coaches asked of him?)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Agree. Maybe the coaches wanted to see him playing before a decision was made.

    Although honestly I can't see what they can take out of it with regards the opponents they were playing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It could be as simple as those players could do with the gametime, while the players retained (who I think all featured for Ireland), could do with the rest.

    Fwiw, I don't think (and haven't argued) that the Ospreys game will have had much, even any, affect on selection. But I think his form since November, including European games, could.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    If Coombes comes into the 23 this weekend, I’d have absolutely no issue with it. As I stated I would prefer to see him against England as that would be a much stronger indication of what he can do. If he doesn’t get picked this weekend though, it shouldn’t cause any uproar either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    The thing is though, as we have seen with both Murray and POM previously. When it’s a close call. Experience or familiarity usually wins out.

    At this point, if Coombes or Conan occupies the 20 jersey. It doesn’t really matter. Both are more than capable of adding value from the bench. However it might take an injury for Coombes to get his chance. As Conan is in possession of the jersey and has done nothing so far to lose it. In terms of his performances in green.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    delighted for POM, very well deserved and there's still loads he can give to the national team



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    We just don't know.

    I like the looks of him and young. I'm certain his time will come.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd agree. But if there's an element of familiarity winning out involved (and I think there could be and understand that), that weakens the "he isn't doing what the coaches ask of him" argument.

    Logically, he could be doing exactly what the coaches ask of him, and familiarity could still be winning out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭OldRio




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Shehal


    They didnt specifically rule out Furlong, Henshaw or JGP but didn't name them in the squad for round 3?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    A bit surprising he wasn’t locked in before now for the RWC or was it only a 6 month extension?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Hopefully it's just precautionary for Sexton. Rotten luck for Earls and McCarthy. Delighted for Penny although I hope that it's not due to a backrow injury.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Scott Penny is also ahead of Gavin Coombes in the pecking order it seems



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