Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266535#Comment_120266535

It’s not really a marginal call based on just form. Hodnett has been a more impactful player in bigger games this year.

It becomes a marginal call when you factor in Penny’s fit and familiarity with the system.

The argument that this could be a discouraging factor for non leinster players isn’t ridiculous at all.

I think you could also make a pretty good argument that this is actually good for our national team success both short and long term. I can see alot of benefits to it in the short term at the very least.

I find these arguments that this is not a factor at all pretty galling however.

Akrasia · 20-02-2023 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266291#Comment_120266291

He started 3 Heineken cup games last year meanwhile Frawley gets brought into the irish camp having started 1 single game at 10 in senior rugby

Healy left Munster because he wanted to play international rugby.

awec · 20-02-2023 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266263#Comment_120266263

I am absolutely convinced that it is significantly easier to get yourself into the Ireland camp if you play for Leinster.

I am not saying that Farrell is a secret Leinster fan or that he wears Leinster pyjamas, but it is surely obvious to all except by now that the easiest path to test caps is to play for Leinster. Being 3rd or 4th choice in your position in Dublin is still going to get you further than being a starter elsewhere.

This is the reality of the state of rugby in Ireland right now. I think, if Leinster fans stood back and looked at the bigger picture they would see why this is frustrating for others. Patronising posts suggesting we should all just get onboard and embrace Ireland becoming Leinster playing in green are coming from people who I think just don't get it. "Team of Us" my absolute bollocks.

Penny has contributed pretty much nothing to Leinster in Europe, he watches most of the games on TV. On the other hand, we have a guy putting in great performances for his team at all levels who gets overlooked. Is it the end of the world? No, but the optics for this are crap, there's no point pretending otherwise.

If Hodnett played for Leinster he'd be in camp right now. 100% no question for me. If Scott Penny played for Munster anyone suggesting he be called to camp would be laughed off the forum. Again, this is not because of some secret bias, it's because more stock is put in players who come up through the Leinster system. Players from other provinces need to work harder and show more to get their foot in the door, there's more for them to prove.

Ireland keep winning, so you can point and say he's getting it right so shut up, and that's a fair point, but the longer term damage here is the unknown. And before anyone gets all flustered, I am not saying the longer term damage of this particular decision, but rather the longer term damage of making Ireland completely dominated by Leinster players.

stephen_n · 20-02-2023 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266543#Comment_120266543

In the long run, since the first time I saw Hodnett play at under 20’s. I’ve looked forward to him becoming an Irish player. I think Penny might pick up a couple of caps but think Hodnett will be far more involved. Though whatever it is the Irish coaches want for now, they have decided to bring Penny in at this point. Penny has been excellent for Leinster. I think his All round game has definitely improved this season. He’s always been good in attack but his defense and ground work has improved this year. That may just be a fans view though but It appears that POC and Fogarty agree.

20-02-2023 7:08pm

This continued great Munster conspiracy about player selection stuff is genuinely boring at this point.

I really like John Hodnett, think he's a quality player, who has played well lately, and would have had no issue with his selection ahead of Scott Penny today. I myself likely would have selected him ahead of Penny, just based on recent form.

But it's not some grand scandal when the equally excellent prospect that is Scott Penny has been selected ahead of him.

The coaches actually have access to the players, get reams of data on their performances, get live updates on how they train, and saw both players up close during the EI Tour. They made this decision.

They're the same people incidentally who's own performances, contracts, career prospects and general credibility is based on winning, and nothing else.

If you're looking to why he might have gotten the call, then it probably helps that Penny absolutely outshone Hodnett directly in the two head to head games between the players this season.

Continued appeals to "Hodnett is starting European games for Munster" doesn't really count for much either: John Hodnett isn't competing with Josh van der Flier, the current World Player of the Year for gametime. If he was, he wouldn't be getting a look in either.

In the past 3 years, going back to when Scott Penny was 20, JvdF hasn't missed a single European game for Leinster.

Neil3030 · 20-02-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266469#Comment_120266469

I'm pretty sure I've watched every Leinster game this season. I have definitely watched every Munster game. Strangely, I have watched nearly ever Stormers game, but that's a separate issue (never get a Florugby account).

The point is, I am confident that I have sampled enough evidence to form a comparison. It just isn't close between Penny and Hodnett right now. The latter is in line for Munster's player of the season, which of course he won't get because Coombes.

So respectfully, your characterisation of Hodnett as second choice / bench player is, at best, based on a not entirely thorough appraisal of the situation.

Akrasia · 20-02-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266491#Comment_120266491

You think Andy Farrell is at every Munster Ulster or Connacht Training session?

Farrell is picking players who have played very few minutes of rugby to bring into the Irish camp. On what basis can he know that these guys are showing more in leinster training than other players are showing in actual competitive rugby games at the highest level?

sydthebeat · 20-02-2023 7:10pm

Ah yes, the inevitable crying over a mobile providers marketing slogan.. I wondered how long it would take for that to come out.

If posters cannot see why penny is there (the answer is based on how he did with emerging Ireland btw) then their own provincial one eye is what's stopping them

20-02-2023 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266520#Comment_120266520

Quite possibly, yeah? Penny scored tries in both wins against Munster this season, and would have been my MotM in the Aviva.

Foxtrol · 20-02-2023 7:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266568#Comment_120266568

Hodnett is so impactful that he sat on the bench each 'big game' in the HC when O'Dongohue was available.

Given the fact that plenty of players from other provinces have made their way into the Irish setup it absolutely is ridiculous that this single tackle bag holding camp selection would make any difference to good players.

TRC10 · 20-02-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266238#Comment_120266238

If Antoine Frisch didn't have a fancy French name, nobody would even be talking about him. He has a good short distribution game and can throw a nice offload, but nothing else noteworthy to his game. His passing is average, and I've seen him throw some absolute howlers. He's not particularly big or powerful and he's not particularly quick. The guy is almost 27 and until recently, hadn't played at a higher level than Pro D2. The only reason French clubs are interested in him, is because they want a squad player who will fill their JIFF quota. Even if he went back to France, he'd get nowhere near their national squad. I'd be surprised if the France coaches even know he exists. He's a decent player, nothing more. Jamie Osborne is a vastly superior talent.

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266605#Comment_120266605

Yes, i definitely disagree on that. And i dont remember Penny dominating Hodnett in those games either. Hodnett did his usual game but in a worse pack than Penny.

Foxtrol · 20-02-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266591#Comment_120266591

Fine, you disagree with both the Munster coaches and the Irish coaches.

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266614#Comment_120266614

What does this even mean?

Are you saying he wasn’t impactful when he played? His stats are stellar.

Foxtrol · 20-02-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266622#Comment_120266622

It means he didn't start either HC game when O'Donoghue was available this year, coming on with 11 and 16 minutes left, nor did he start when the first choice backrow were available last year.

He hasn't been first choice for Munster even though people keep implying he has been, while at the same time using Penny being a backup to beat him with.

Neil3030 · 20-02-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266618#Comment_120266618

The title of TRC10's new novel:

"Defending. That thing outside centres no longer need to do (apparently)"

aloooof · 20-02-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266605#Comment_120266605

Yaaaaa, I’m not buying that.

There’s a suggestion Hodnett wouldn’t have scored those tries. Which is, at best, very debatable.

AdamD · 20-02-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266622#Comment_120266622

And Penny literally has 25 tries in 51 Leinster appearances, pretty stellar stats.

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266659#Comment_120266659

And that means he wasn’t impactful in the big games he did play in? You aren’t making a ton of sense.

aloooof · 20-02-2023 7:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266659#Comment_120266659

It means he didn't start either HC game when O'Donoghue was available this year

This is simply not true. Hodnett started at 7 when JOD was on the bench vs Toulouse.

Presumably this changes your thinking. Right?

Foxtrol · 20-02-2023 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266669#Comment_120266669

Shhhhsshh - the try scoring record of backrowers only counts when you're talking about one specific player

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266669#Comment_120266669

Yea, he has played great but has barely played in any big games for leinster.

It used to be that mattered. It doesn’t any more. Now it matters more that you are familiar with the leinster system. That’s the thing that people are talking about.

Leinster fans are sitting here pretending that this shift hasn’t happened and its honestly hilarious.

sydthebeat · 20-02-2023 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266620#Comment_120266620

Hodnett didnt play in the Thomond game.

Foxtrol · 20-02-2023 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266679#Comment_120266679

Sorry, my bad.

Forgot he started the first game and was dropped for the next two.

AdamD · 20-02-2023 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266685#Comment_120266685

Or, Leinster are miles ahead of the other 3 provinces. They've literally won every game this season, its not a shock that their second choice 7 is considered before Munster's (first/second??!) choice 7.

Do we think Ireland got to world number 1 with a coach picking players with a huge bias?

ulsteru20s · 20-02-2023 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266708#Comment_120266708

Their third choice 7. Can i see a pure third choice leinster team dominate everyone year in year out? I’ll believe it then.

I never said that it was bad for the national team. I said that there is obviously more than talent or form. System familiarity, cohesion and fit are also big factors.

Neil3030 · 20-02-2023 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266621#Comment_120266621

Wait. I disagree with the Munster coaches now?

Clegg · 20-02-2023 7:47pm

The levels of bitterness and paranoia are off the charts here and elsewhere. Farrell and his coaches really don't care about what we think. They're bringing in players they think will fit in with the ethos of the squad.

In that regard, I think the Emerging Ireland tour did a good job in identifying those players. Crowley, Osborne, Penny, McCarthy and Ahern all had great hit outs. 4 of those 5 have since made the AI or Six Nations squads. And I'm pretty sure Ahern would be there too but for injury.

aloooof · 20-02-2023 7:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266706#Comment_120266706

And started the last. At a minimum it shows it’s not clear who the starting 7 is for Munster.

Hodnett is absolutely in that conversation.

20-02-2023 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266784#Comment_120266784

Yeah, but if Scott Penny was a Munster player, he likely would be too.

Was is absolutely clear is that none of these guys are at the level of Josh van der Flier, which explains why John Hodnett has gotten a bit more European experience than Scott Penny. It's significantly harder for Scott Penny to get gametime than it is for John Hodnett.

Coaches will select who they think is the better player, regardless of provincial pecking orders. Penny has played plenty of rugby this year, and has played well.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Comments