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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #21032
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    In all of this...

    Am I the only one who completely missed and is now dying to know the TRK v Venjur story??!!



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    #21033
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,383 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Venjur, amongst others, was 'mean' in a match buildup thread which was all of us taking the piss and winding each other up. TRK took that as Leinster fans being arrogant and abusive to Munster fans and went off on one on Twitter.

    Like you Neil, I'm not on twitter either but it was linked here at the time.

    Storm in a teacup territory, but it was honestly pretty funny.



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    #21034
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I missed all that too, mainly because I avoid Munster/Leinster build up threads like the plague. They seem to have free licence to troll so why would any sane person bother themselves with them.



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    #21035
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267534#Comment_120267534

    It's relevant if you need to manufacture some reason to get outraged. It's not relevant for any other reason.



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    #21036
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268399#Comment_120268399

    You don’t think Connors injury is relevant to the discussion about Leinster’s 2nd choice 7? I honestly thought you would have rated him higher.



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    #21037
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268405#Comment_120268405

    Why are you discussing the Leinster pecking order in the Irish thread? Mod should know better you'd have thought.

    Turning the conversation into a discussion on Leinster's second choice 7 is an attempt to manufacture outrage. Deflect, obfuscate, move the goalposts to turn it into a great injustice.



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    #21038
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268295#Comment_120268295

    I demand details.



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    #21039
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268413#Comment_120268413

    Because it’s relevant.

    This whole discussion has been about a player down the Leinster pecking order, who has practically no European experience being selected ahead of a player with more European experience who has been selected and performed really well against the likes of Toulouse.

    It’s worthy of discussion and people are entitled to discuss it without it being written off as “outrage, paranoia, bitter, pathetic, conspiracy, whining”.

    All phrases that have been used in the last few pages.

    And I don’t think I have posted anything that could be describe as “outrage” or “manufacturing outrage”.



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    #21040
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268427#Comment_120268427

    Maybe, just maybe, the Irish coaching set up saw a little more in Penny than Hodnett the one time that both players were actually comparable..... You know.... When they actually trained and toured together.

    Linking their place in the leinster depth chart to a function of national team selection is ignorant in the extreme and pretty insulting to the capabilities of the coaching set up.



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    #21041
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268441#Comment_120268441

    I guess I can add “ignorant” and “insulting” to the list…

    I’d say it’s absolutely the case that the Irish coaches saw a little more from Penny in training. It’s axiomatic. I’m not disagree with that.

    But it used to be the case you had to do it at a higher level than training to justifying inclusion in the National setup. That seems to be a new trend.

    There’s a reasonable discussion to be had on that. That doesn’t make everyone who’s disappointed for Hodnett “ignorant, pathetic… etc”.



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    #21042
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268462#Comment_120268462

    ??

    I'm talking about training in the national set up... And I'm saying THAT is the singular reason one has been selected over another

    You are trying to claim that one has been selected over another by virtue of their place on the depth chart of Leinster.


    Did you not know both players travelled on the emerging Ireland tour??



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    #21043
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268468#Comment_120268468

    I was well aware both travelled on the EI tour.

    But the point is, you used to have to do more than training well for, say, the Wolfhounds (and even those players were further up the depth chart).

    That seems to be a new trend. It’s worthy of discussion



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    #21044
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268490#Comment_120268490

    well, like i said in my first post on this... what do posters actually think the Emerging ireland tour was for, if it wasnt for identifying possible test players?

    unlike some theorists on here, it wasnt a grand scheme to scupper munsters league chances, but in the words of Simon Easterby:

    there are also players who we feel are better suited - at this moment in time - exposing them to our environment...... there’s not that many opportunities to expose players to the environment and find out a little bit more about certain players.

    Both players trained and played on this tour... but yet thats is ignored by some here as to being the reason one was selected over another to do a few days in camp before the italy game? why is it being ignored i wonder?



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    #21045
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268427#Comment_120268427

    The gametime stats over the past few seasons have already been posted, if you're denying the numbers that are right in front of your face then I don't know what else to say.



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    #21046
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268511#Comment_120268511

    Do you think that only the EI is a factor or that (provincial) games since then could influence a decision here or there?


    And there's no need for the jibe "unlike some theorists on here, it wasnt a grand scheme to scupper munsters league chances" for the most part you seem to be above that shite.



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    #21047
    phily2002
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268462#Comment_120268462

    I think you're arguing that Penny is 3rd choice as Connors is back which he may be, but he has and is currently 2nd choice as Connors has been out for a long time. He was also called up to the EI when 2nd choice. This is when the coaches got a look at him.

    Murray was dropped to 3rd choice for Munster this season. Earls can't make the squad yet both make the Irish squad and Murray starts. As said above by a Munster poster Hodnett is in line for player of the year but will lose out to Coombes. So by that logic POM has been 3rd best backrow yet goes straight into the Irish starting team.

    Penny has been consistently good for a few years now. He'd be a regular in the other provinces back-rows but is stuck behind the world player of the year and Connors who is coming back who himself was one of Irelands best players before injury.

    He's played against Munster and went really well as he has against most teams he plays against.

    3rd 7 for Leinster could well be the 3rd best 7 for Ireland. As I said they are both great players, not much between them so I'd say the EI tour swung it for Penny



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    #21048
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268511#Comment_120268511

    Easterby also said they had to make "compromises". At the time the the EI tour was announced, the Maori game was the point of reference. Given the backlash from the Provinces, it's not unreasonable to conclude the "certain players" they had in mind at the outset may not have been the "certain players" that actually toured.

    I don't see much value in revisiting the EI tour's impact, but I didn't see anyone say it was a grand scheme to scupper Munsters league chances. But that doesn't mean it didn't have an impact.

    Easterby himself also said:

    “…we also have to feel like we're not ripping the heart out of the provinces, and taking too many players in one position."

    Which is pretty much tacit acknowledgement of an impact it may have. And to reiterate, Munster were left with 0 senior back-3 players for a game because of it.



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    #21049
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268427#Comment_120268427

    You are creating what if scenarios though. If Connors hadn’t been injured, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. He would have been in the squad and not Penny or Hodnett.

    The fact is, he was injured for nearly two years. In that time Penny has been the clear second choice openside for Leinster. Behind the current WPOTY. Where as Hodnett is behind JOD.



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    #21050
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    A number of fans from various provinces posted in this very forum saying they felt the tour could impact the provinces but the trolls only target the Munster fans for having that view. I wonder why?



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    #21051
    SaoPaulo41
    Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41


    The closer we get to the game on Saturday, it has banana skin written all over it, no Sexton,Furlong,Beirne is huge . Italy are playing really well. Just think we may slip up here if too many changes are made.



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    #21052
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267513#Comment_120267513

    Gloucester, Castres, Northampton are no better than any random sh1t URC teams, when playing in Europe at least. The URC teams at least get to do their best most of the time.



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    #21053
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268619#Comment_120268619

    Not really, Ireland can and will put points on Italy, the only banana skin left in the 6Ns for Ireland to be concerned about is England in the Avivia and even then I can't see us lose it but by then a one point win will be enough



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    #21054
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267829#Comment_120267829

    It sounds like you're arguing for Connors to be included in the 6N squad, not Hodnett.

    I disagree, and would have Hodnett there, ahead of Penney and Timoney, as it's too early to recall Connors.



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    #21055
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268615#Comment_120268615

    I think Connors injury, at a minimum, muddies the waters. And I don't think it's clear that Hodnett is behind JOD.

    There's a suggestion that both Hodnett and Penny are at equivalent levels of their prinvincial depths charts where, to my mind, Hodnett is clearly higher up the Munster depth chart.

    How far up, we can debate. But there's no equivalance to me. Which is borne out by the minutes in Europe.



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    #21056
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268581#Comment_120268581

    i think that the singular most significant factor in the choice was the emerging ireland tour, and i have no problem at all calling any other argument about leinster depth chart being a factor as being an ignorant viewpoint and insulting to the coaching set up. it smacks on mealy mouthed bias and borders on conspiracy theory.

    and as for the comment about the EI tour being whinged at by provincial fans, one particular provinces fans did the most prolonged whinging, and are still doing it. It is an easy line to draw between their dislike of the EI tour and their inability now to see fall out from it.



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    #21057
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268666#Comment_120268666

    I think we agree tbh. If Connors was back longer, I'd absolutely have him ahead of Penny and probably Hodnett too. I think he's in with a better chance of making the RWC, if he gets a good injury free run.



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    #21058
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268462#Comment_120268462

    I'd say you could add 'cowardly' now as well after you conveniently threadbanned the one poster consistently producing statistics to back up a balanced argument.



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    #21059
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There's a werid irony to me that the posters being called "bitter, pathetic, paranoid, ignorant, whining, conspiracy theorists with mealy mouthed bias" are the ones being branded unreasonable in this argument...



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    #21060
    phily2002
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268644#Comment_120268644

    I think Scotland away will be more of a challenge than England at home. They are in great form. France away will be a huge test for them and should be a great match.

    I think we win easily enough this weekend. Italy are better but not close to us. I recon we'll win by 20 plus



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    #21061
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268703#Comment_120268703

    Mod: If you have an issue with the moderation take it to PM, do not post on the thread.

    "cowardly" clearly constitutes abuse. You're leaving me with very little option but to also threadban you for 2 weeks.



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