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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #21062
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268688#Comment_120268688

    It's only being prolonged because at nearly every opportunity posters like you drag it up. I mean we can have a discussion on selections without you and others dragging up the EI tour as the be all and end all and taking pot shots at Munster fans and how it was solely aimed at scuppering out progress in the league.



    .



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    #21063
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268716#Comment_120268716

    Scotland got England in their first international under Borthwick, then had Wales in Edinburgh. After Sunday we will see what Scotland are really made of but I doubt they're a real threat to us in our attempt to win the 6Ns. England on the other hand will have a few games under their belt by the time they face us in the Aviva.



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    #21064
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268672#Comment_120268672

    The minutes in Europe is only down to being involved in a far inferior back row though. If Hodnett was behind VDF, he would have the same amount of minutes in Europe as Penny. In Europe this year, Leinster have the WPOTY playing nearly every minute available. The bench spot is then covered by a test lion. How is that in anyway comparable to Hodnett’s path to those minutes?



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    #21065
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268816#Comment_120268816

    None of this matters at all. Nobody really cares why Penny can't get a game in Europe, it's of no consequence.

    Players are selected cause they either have greater talent, or greater experience. Penny possesses neither over Hodnett, in fact he's clearly behind Hodnett when it comes to experience.

    What Penny does have that Hodnett doesn't, is a history of going through Leinster private schools and the Leinster academy. For whatever reason, people are refusing to accept that this is a very significant factor.



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    #21066
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268816#Comment_120268816

    You claimed Hodnett is behind JOD, with a heavy suiggestion he's Munster's 2nd choice 7. He wouldn't have anywhere near as many minutes in Europe if it was that clear cut.

    I don't think it's that controversial to state that Hodnett is further up the Munster depth chart than Penny is in Leinsters.



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    #21067
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268672#Comment_120268672

    But there's no equivalance to me. 

    But your whole argument relies on equivalence.

    The fundamental argument is that the first/second choice at Munster must be better than the second/third choice at Leinster. That isn't necessarily the case, and there are as many reasons to think that Penny is better than Hodnett as vice versa.

    Realistically though, this is a wider argument than Penny v Hodnett.



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    #21068
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    Penny has played just under twice the number of minutes of professional rugby as Hodnett, 3247 vs 1837.



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    #21069
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268858#Comment_120268858

    In the league.



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    #21070
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268852#Comment_120268852

    The fundamental argument is that the first/second choice at Munster must be better than the second/third choice at Leinster.

    I don't think anyone has definitely said that either tho. The argument is that, 1st/2nd choice for Munster has allowed Hodnett get game time against the likes of Toulouse, where he's performed really well.

    We haven't see anything like that for Penny.

    Realistically though, this is a wider argument than Penny v Hodnett.

    I completely agree with this tbh. I think the reason for some of the reaction isn't just because of this single marginal call.



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    #21071
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    Penny has played significantly more professional rugby than Hodnett, and has been touted as a top prospect from day one. We're somehow at the point where Hodnett's 2 European games rotating with JOD, must mean more than Penny playing far more rugby. Apparently Penny's games against Munster also aren't significant, which is pretty funny logic really.



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    #21072
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    tin foil hat stuff that deserves to be derided.

    again here is another poster who refused to acknowledge that irish coaches have seen both these players closely, within the irish national set up, on tour, and have selected one player over another.

    yet we have absolutely ludicris claims that its because one player went a private school??? FFS that is pathetic beyond belief.



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    #21073
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268884#Comment_120268884

    But awec hasn't refused to acknowledge that. He's saying his involvement with Leinster is also a factor.

    I seem to use this phrase a lot here but "both things things can be true".



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    #21074
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268882#Comment_120268882

    Hodnett has 459 minutes over 10 games in Europe. He doesn't just have "2 games rotating with JOD".



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    #21075
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268850#Comment_120268850

    Penny has for the last 2 years been second choice at Leinster. FTD provided the figures for you earlier. How much further up the depth chart does he need to be? Getting passed JOD v getting past VDF. Is like comparing apples with onions.



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    #21076
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268896#Comment_120268896

    What possible reason do (English) Andy Farrell, (English) Mike Catt and (Munster, forwards coach) POC have for using the Leinster schools system as a factor when deciding between two players? Explain how that makes a whit of sense please.



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    #21077
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268884#Comment_120268884

    syd, are you really going to suggest that it's completely and entirely coincidental that the overwhelming majority of Irish players came through private schools in Leinster?

    I am not saying that Andy Farrell is running around talking about the goys or epic horseplay in Blackrock, I am saying that clearly, going through one of the private schools in Dublin and the Leinster academy is a lot more beneficial for any wannabe pro than going through any other underage system anywhere else in the country, and going through this system is seen as a sufficient substitute to exposure to top level club rugby.

    The facts here are overwhelming.

    For some reason, some of you are refusing to accept that the big money school system that underpins your province is a huge factor in getting your players to where they are, as if that fact is somehow denigrating to Leinster Rugby.



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    #21078
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268896#Comment_120268896

    Straight question.

    Do you agree that Penny is in the squad because he went to a private school in Leinster?



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    #21079
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268896#Comment_120268896

    wrong!!!

    not once since it was announced that scott penny has joined the squad, has awec acknowledged the EI tour... not once! Hes never mentioned it.

    he has however mentioned "leinster private schools" 3 times and is fully behind the theory that this is the differences between penny being called up over Hodnett.

    That theory is pathetic beyond belief, in the face of the obvious factors in teh selection... and trying to defend that viewpoint is equally pathetic.



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    #21080
    hold my beer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    This place has gone to the dogs. Ireland playing some of the best rugby we've ever played yet the thread full of whinging and moaning about provincial bias.

    I've read all of it, why I don't know, and all I want to do is unsubscribe from the thread. Which I don't want to do because there's occasionally good stuff.

    Any chance of a news and chat thread, and a seperate one for endless arguments that absolutely nobody cares about?



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    #21081
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    It is of no consequence if you ignore reality and twist things to a set narrative. Something you seem to enjoy doing.

    If European selection was the main criteria for inclusion here. Timoney has considerably more of it than anyone else. So maybe it’s not. Especially since he went to one of these much vaunted Private schools you want to make this about.

    Perhaps it has more to do with the time both players got to spend with the Irish coaches on the EI tour. Or is it too difficult for you to acknowledge that, given how much you gave out about the tour?



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    #21082
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268917#Comment_120268917

    I think you're missing the point tbh.

    I'm not saying the coaches are biased. I'm saying coming through the Leinster academy, and familiarity with the Leinster system, now seems to be taken into account now, and a lack of experience, particularly at European level, doesn't seem to matter in a way that previously, it would have.



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    #21083
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268949#Comment_120268949

    Here go the goalposts again. A minute ago it was the Leinster private schools system. Now it's the Leinster academy and Leinster professional setup.



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    #21084
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268920#Comment_120268920

    are you asking if i think the best players in the country are products of some of the best underage coaching in the country??

    because i certainly dont think its coincidence

    do you not want the best players playing for ireland?? genuine question?


    do you think that the irish coaches would have a better idea of who closer to the national squad based on either

    1. how they fared on the emerging ireland tour or
    2. what their position is in the leinster depth chart?

    "better" means which is more significant, unless of course you given each an equal weighting



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    #21085
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268923#Comment_120268923

    No, and I have never said as much. I'm not sure I can summarise it better than this:

    I'm not saying the coaches are biased. I'm saying coming through the Leinster academy, and familiarity with the Leinster system, now seems to be taken into account now, and a lack of experience, particularly at European level, doesn't seem to matter in a way that previously, it would have.



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    #21086
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268970#Comment_120268970

    You need to pay more attention to the conversations you're getting involved in. Awec specifically cited the schools system (not the Leinster setup, the schools). as a reason Penny is involved. You backed up his point. Now you're saying you never mentioned schools. You either are trying to obfuscate again or you just didn't read properly.



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    #21087
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268959#Comment_120268959

    You're claiming I'm moving the goalposts, but here's awec's comment. Spot the bolded part.

    ..."a history of going through Leinster private schools and the Leinster academy."



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    #21088
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    CHRIST ON A BIKE LADS CAN WE JUST **** NOT?

    I guess it actually shows the great state of Irish rugby that the only gripe people are able to have is about a 3rd choice **** openside.

    The days of Kearney vs Zebo didn't bring up this much utter vitriol and that was for a starting place.

    So full credit to Andy Farrell whose success has meant that even the most one eyed detractors have to put their provincial biases aside until much further down the depth chart than usual. Who knows how far down the depth chart he can quench arguments.



    Seriously..... 6 **** pages on Scott Penny vs John Hodnett in an Ireland thread.

    Life isn't fair. Professional sport is even less fair. Manage your expectations



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    #21089
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268987#Comment_120268987

    That post has been edited, multiple times at this point. It's very difficult to have a discussion with a moving target.



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    #21090
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268984#Comment_120268984

    But I'm not saying he never mentioned schools. I'm saying he also mentioned the academy.

    Which you're suggesting has only just been introduced now. It hasn't.



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    #21091
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268995#Comment_120268995

    have you accepted yet that he has never acknowledged the EI tour in this conversation, so therefore his gripe is purely provincial based?



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