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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #21092
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268948#Comment_120268948

    I said talent and experience. You've just decided to completely ignore the talent aspect now, and pretend I said it's all about experience.

    Timoney wasn't selected cause he doesn't have much of a test future. There's not much more that needs to be said there.



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    #21093
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267372#Comment_120267372

    I’d argue Pres are in the top 5 schools in the country, 8 players in the current Munster set up with 151 Ireland caps between them and they have two in the current Ireland under 20’s team.



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    #21094
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268967#Comment_120268967

    So you don't think it's a coincidence.

    On the one hand, you are telling me that the Leinster schools and Leinster academy provide the best underage coaching in the country. You are absolutely correct.

    On the other hand, I am saying players going through Leinster schools, and the Leinster academy, and therefore getting the best coaching in the country is a big factor in why they get selected even when there are more experienced, similar players to them at other provinces.

    And you and others are telling me I am wrong there.

    You surely see the contradiction here.



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    #21095
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268993#Comment_120268993

    Ok, that post has, but awec has regularly mentioned "Leinster academy" in previous posts. It hasn't been just introduced to the discussion now, like you seemed to be suggesting.



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    #21096
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269015#Comment_120269015

    Leinster schools turn out the most players, and logically they will have a bigger share of the best players.

    However, Penny and Hodnett left school five years ago. If Hodnett couldn't make up the gap in that time, then that's on him. If the Munster academy isn't doing its job, then that's on them.

    What you're proposing is some sort of affirmative action whereby we're not selecting players based on how good they are.



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    #21097
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269004#Comment_120269004

    Ok, he hasn't acknowledged the EI. But he has acknowledged the Leinster academy.

    I think that's a fair comment. And I don't think it's fair to say it's "purely provincial based".



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    #21098
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269015#Comment_120269015

    is a big factor in why they get selected even when there are more experienced, similar players to them at other provinces.

    a big factor???

    you see thats your problem. You refuse to acknowledge that the Emerging Ireland tour is the singular most significant factor in this decision. You disliked the tour so much now you give it no credence whatsoever, and you cannot accept that the coaches would certainly have seen things in camp, that differentiate the two players.

    we as fans see them as similar, but how do you know the coaches do? You aren't privy to this information. Youve no idea what differentials were between the two while in camp. Youve no idea what work ons both were given and how they have hit thos emakers since being in camp.

    actually having to resort to saying the "big" factor between the selection of Penny over Hodnett was the fact Penny attended a private school is really, really sad.



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    #21099
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269046#Comment_120269046

    WTF?

    so not mentioning the national factor, and only mentioning the provincial factor is now not "purely provincial based" ?? it EXACTLY the literal definition of a"purely provincial based" gripe

    ah alooof, come on now. This is getting into the realms of parody stuff.



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    #21100
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269066#Comment_120269066

    I read thats as "purely provincial biased", apologies.

    (I can't speak for awec, but I would add the point if he's saying "a big factor" that implies there are other factors...).



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    #21101
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269056#Comment_120269056

    How do you know the EI tour is the singular most significant factor? You don't know this. You think this, because it happens to fit into your argument. Your view that the EI tour is a big factor holds no more weight than my view that coming through the best coaching setup in the country is a big factor, yet apparently I am sad for having my opinion.

    As for this:

    we as fans see them as similar, but how do you know the coaches do? You aren't privy to this information. Youve no idea what differentials were between the two while in camp. Youve no idea what work ons both were given and how they have hit thos emakers since being in camp.

    This is trotted out a lot on here. How can anyone on this forum question the coach, etc etc etc, sure we don't know anything, clearly they go it right cause they're the coaches and we are not.

    This is a discussion forum, we're here to discuss. If people are going to get annoyed at other posters having a view that's differing to their own they are in the wrong place. If people think this is a forum to defend the decisions of the coaches no matter what, they are in the wrong place. It is tiring reading the same old clichés, and then when anyone dares have a view that's in any way negative about Irish players or coaches or players from a particular province they are jumped on.

    We are not here to reaffirm Andy Farrell's decisions, we're not his PR. He gets it right most of the time, he'll inevitably get some things wrong. He'll make decisions some disagree with or want to discuss. It's all fair game. We cannot keep trying to hide behind this cloak of being unable to question him cause he sees them in camp and we don't.



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    #21102
    phily2002
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268803#Comment_120268803

    They'll have a few games under their belt but their tactics look really poor. I can't see them turning it around by the time they play us, especially with us at home.

    Scotland could fall apart, this weekend will be telling. I still think they'll push us closer than England will.



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    #21103
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269036#Comment_120269036

    What gap?

    I'm not suggesting any affirmative action to be clear (more on this below). Pick the best players. My point is the same as your opening line, the majority of the best players will come from Leinster, and it's not because there's some special genes floating around the Leinster gene pool, it's because the best pathway to pro rugby in this country is coming through your schools and your academy. When push comes to shove, coming through this pathway will count for a lot. It will give you a head start over the guys coming through the other academies, even if those other guys have more experience (which, often will be because the other guys can get into the senior team faster).

    On the affirmative action, pick the best players. Most will be from Leinster. For the next while, we'll have to live with the fact that Ireland is Leinster plus guests. The way to fix this is systemic. Leinster will always produce the most, there's just advantages there that the others cannot compete with, but the other academies I am sure could do better. Give them a bigger chunk of the pie, so that maybe down the line instead the talent is a little more spread than it is now.



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    #21104
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Im no Farrell apologist nor PR for anyone, thank you very much.... not that i see there much to apologise for nor the need for constructed PR.

    the fact that you think attending a private school holds more weight to test caps than how players actually perform, while in national camp, in front of national coaches, says enough about your argument to be fair... and other readers can make up their minds

    Perhaps posters forget that what started this whole argument...

    "that how you train for leinster is probably equally important to how you play for another province in european games.

    This is the mental gymnastics that some employ to have a go at leinster. ive presented my viewpoint on the selection and what i see as the reason behind it.. no point repeating it ad nauseum at this stage.



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    #21105
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269157#Comment_120269157

    Nobody is having a go at Leinster. It's not a criticism of Leinster, it's not a dig at Leinster. The current state of Irish Rugby is not the fault of Leinster Rugby.



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    #21106
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269005#Comment_120269005

    How do you assess talent? Your viewpoint on that may and clearly does differ, from the people who are actually paid to assess it. Are you now trying to say Penny lacks talent? What metric are you measuring that on?



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    #21107
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269165#Comment_120269165

    The current state of Irish Rugby

    Number 1 team in the world, all four provinces in the top 4 of the league, three provinces in the last 16 of Europe.

    It could be worse like.



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    #21108
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269165#Comment_120269165

    i never said it was criticism, it something else that is not very well veiled. We're all fans of different provinces. its just sad that when it comes to ireland that provincial "fan'ness" cant be left behind by some.



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    #21109
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269204#Comment_120269204

    It could be a lot worse.

    I think you know what my point was though. The state of Irish Rugby, in the sense that it's incredibly lopsided with the national team being almost entirely dependent on one province, and with one province being head and shoulders above the other 3.



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    #21110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    I'm amazed that one of the mods is pushing this angle



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    #21111
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269215#Comment_120269215

    are you asserting that the other 3 provinces aren't pulling their weight? interesting viewpoint.



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    #21112
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268619#Comment_120268619

    Ireland should not be even contemplating losing to Italy.

    They're an improved side, but if we are to have even a whisper of a chance of winning the RWC, then we should be beating this Italian team even with a heavily rotated side.



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    #21113
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Has Sexton actually been ruled out or are we guessing?



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    #21114
    phily2002
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269347#Comment_120269347

    Haven't heard anything official. Joey getting called up indicates he might be out. If he's a doubt they might just choose to rest him this week



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    #21115
    CMcsporty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭CMcsporty


    https://twitter.com/charge_down/status/1627994380458987522?s=20

    Eis qui sine peccato est vestrum primus in illam lapidem mitta



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    #21116
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269090#Comment_120269090

    I'd 100% agree with the jist of this, fwiw.

    The "coaches have more information, he's doing / not doing what the coaches want, QED" argument is very binary and leaves no room for discussion around what could very easily be marginal calls.



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    #21117
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268839#Comment_120268839

    That's a ridiculous argument. Most of the national team went to those same fee paying schools. It's also possible that if Hodnett was with Leinster, he would not have the minutes he has.

    Penny at 23 has 51 appearances for Leinster. He's played absolutely brilliant rugby and is a fine player. For what it's worth, he'd have more experience if he was playing for Ulster. While I think Hodnett is the better player, there is little between them.

    It's likely that lads that go to private schools in Leinster are better coached and better prospects than their rivals. The Leinster bashing is trivial. The other provinces are flush with Leinster players and some went to private schools.

    Let's move on to Carberry v Ross again. Both of whom aren't international players, imo. Despite Ross going to a private school.



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    #21118
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268920#Comment_120268920

    Why would going to these schools be a problem? These schools are providing quality players. Would you prefer if these players were not picked and Ireland be a team that's more in line with the quality of a mid table team? Who's going to get behind that? How is rugby relevant on the island?



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    #21119
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268896#Comment_120268896

    Maybe the Leinster coaching and training systems are just producing players who more quickly adapt to what the national coaches are looking for, and are better able to take their opportunities when called into camp, putting themselves top of the list when a call up is needed? People are trying themselves in knots when tbh, I think that's the simplest and most likely contributor.



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    #21120
    naughtyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭naughtyboy


    We are only a couple of injuries away from Ireland starting with 15 leinster players, not that it's a bad thing for leinster as its a great achievement for them , but for rugby around the rest of the island what does it mean.

    What does it mean that there are more born in the southern hemisphere involved then were born in ulster connacht and munster.

    Is it healthy for Irelands success to be reliant completely on leinster, if their conveyor belt of great talent were to slow or go off track than Ireland would be in serious trouble

    I think As long as Ireland keep winning the whole country will get behind this team , but if they were to falter then it could become a case of not a team of us but a team of privately educated leinster players with a few imports thrown in.

    We are very close to munster ulster and connacht supporters turning their back on the infternational team, its been brewing for at least 5 years.

    If you have leinster producing so much talent that their reserves are better than the other provinces home produced than support will fall off for attendance in the other 3 provinces but also for rugby in general in the clubs in these provinces



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    #21121
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270205#Comment_120270205

    Because they dont really exist anywhere else and also by being fee paying close off a significiant proportion of people from ever attending which reduces potential playing base.



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