Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 5:17pm

I'd be very surprised if Andy Farrell is selecting players based on where they went to school, as has been suggested.

Like, are we really saying Andy Farrell sat down and thought "Hodnett is the better player, but Penny went to a private school in South Dublin so I'll pick him instead"?

aloooof · 21-02-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270803#Comment_120270803

There's a difference between:

"Andy Farrell hasn't selected him, therefore he hasn't done enough", and
"Andy Farrell hasn't selected him, I agree with that decision and here are the reasons why I think he hasn't".

The former is an appeal to authority. It pretty much goes without saying, since it's implicit in the selctions. The latter is way more interesting.

aloooof · 21-02-2023 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270994#Comment_120270994

Absolutely nobody has been saying that.

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271043#Comment_120271043

Seems to me that @awec is saying pretty much exactly that.

His main point seems to be that when it comes to selection, attending a Dublin private school counts for more than performing well for a province that isn't Leinster.

Dubinusa · 21-02-2023 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270433#Comment_120270433

It's also possible that Conanan is rated higher than Coombes. If Conan was injured, I would expect Coombes to be selected.

Dubinusa · 21-02-2023 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270582#Comment_120270582

Who is saying to throw their support behind Penny? I'm not! I think Hodnett is a better player. But, only slightly. I also said that if Connors was healthy, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Penny will be capped sporadically, imo. Hodnett will probably be capped more. He could be a mainstay.

Dubinusa · 21-02-2023 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270642#Comment_120270642

Fine post.

Dubinusa · 21-02-2023 6:13pm

Where would the provinces be without Leinster players? Ulster have quiet a few! Connacht are at about 50% and some in the academy. Munster have a handful. So this is bad for Irish rugby?

For a small island that has a small population, we're in tip top condition. Relax the khaks! Don't worry, be happy.

phog · 21-02-2023 6:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270994#Comment_120270994

You're reading stuff that isn't there

Lost Ormond · 21-02-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271286#Comment_120271286

Connacht arent about 50% and Munster and Ulster have a few and yes this is bad for irish rugby. We do have a small population but if players are overwhelmingly from one area it isnt good for game overall

Dave_The_Sheep · 21-02-2023 6:37pm

So if people haven't been saying "It seems like Leinster players get easier selection to the national setup ahead of players from other provinces", what have they been saying? Because it seems to me that's what they've been saying. What has the last dozen pages been about so?

Foxtrol · 21-02-2023 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270917#Comment_120270917

Shouldn't it have been worse when the selections were so one sided and team wasn't playing as well? People would have far more of a right to feel disillusioned with the team if they are deeming a province to be getting preferential treatment in selections and they weren't getting the results.

A point could be made that it may be damaging but it is being treated here like it is damaging.

Evidence is that since the last time this imbalance happened with the Irish team, overall Irish rugby has since hit far higher heights, the other 3 provinces improved significantly and the only one that declined was the one getting the perceived preferential treatment with selections.

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 6:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271302#Comment_120271302

I must be. Please enlighten me as to what it was people were really saying

aloooof · 21-02-2023 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271477#Comment_120271477

I mean, I was directly asked "Do you agree that Penny is in the squad because he went to a private school in Leinster?"

And I responded with: No, and I have never said as much.

Here's another post explaining my position:

I'm not saying the coaches are biased. I'm saying coming through the Leinster academy, and familiarity with the Leinster system, now seems to be taken into account now, and a lack of experience, particularly at European level, doesn't seem to matter in a way that previously, it would have.

I can't make it any clearly than that.

aloooof · 21-02-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271407#Comment_120271407

But this:

"It seems like Leinster players get easier selection to the national setup ahead of players from other provinces"

Isn't the same as this:

Like, are we really saying Andy Farrell sat down and thought "Hodnett is the better player, but Penny went to a private school in South Dublin so I'll pick him instead"?

People have been saying the former. They haven't been saying the latter.

irelandrover · 21-02-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271477#Comment_120271477

I think it is easier for Leinster players to make the squad. Not because they are from leinster but because the majority of the squad is from leinster. The same way when munster dominated the forwards it was easier for a munster prop to make the squad due to familiarity.

So if you are calling in a player mid way through a competition it makes sense to pick Penney over Hodnett as he is far more familiar with the players than Hodnett.

However that creates a situation where Hodnett is playing higher profile games and appears to be playing better yet doesn't make the squad. That's definitely bad optics for supporters.

At the start of the next competition Penney makes the squad as he is playing well and is familiar with the setup. And its justifiably as he is familiar with the setup no matter the reasons why he was there in the first place.

I think that it is absolutely correct the make up of the 23, they are the better players and we are winning. But seeing decision like Penney over Hodnett, milne over other options is hard to see.

The difference between now and Munster dominated times is that the munster team was clearly a golden generation. The leinster squad is an ongoing production line. It is easy to see Leinsters domination of the Irish team only getting worse. So when Leinsters 3rd choice prop makes the squad ahead of other provinces starters then I at least can see why some supporters get disillusioned as it appears it's no longer an Irish team but leinster playing in green.

aloooof · 21-02-2023 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271585#Comment_120271585

Great post, very well summed up.

Foxtrol · 21-02-2023 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271555#Comment_120271555

Once again, it only 'seems' it has anything to do with the Leinster academy when people ignore other clear available evidence.

I've no doubt it does feel like an easy answer to selection decisions though.

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271555#Comment_120271555

I'm saying coming through the Leinster academy, and familiarity with the Leinster system, now seems to be taken into account now

Or maybe the coaches just think Penny is better? If the coaches value "familiarity with the Leinster system" above anything else, why do they pick Hansen over Larmour and J.O'Brien, POM over Conan and Baird, Beirne over Molony and McCarthy, and Carbery over Ross Byrne for years? Because they just rate them higher. Is it so outlandish to suggest this is the case in the Hodnett v Penny debate. I probably would have gone for Hodnett if it were me making the call. I like him as a player and think he's been great for Munster. But ultimately, I don't think there's much between the two players. And I don't think the Penny selection warrants the hysteria and conspiracy theories there has been over it.

I'm not saying the coaches know best and we shouldn't question them (I really dislike that line of thinking). I value and enjoy the discussion and the debate. But this seems to have been blown massively out of proportion. Where was the outrage when Murray was selected to start for Ireland after being dropped from the Munster 23? Where was the outrage when Crowley was selected for Ireland ahead of R.Byrne, Carty and Burns, all of whom were playing at a higher level consistently? Or when Casey wasn't a starter for Munster, yet was selected ahead of McGrath, Blade and Cooney, all of whom were first choice for their provinces?

sydthebeat · 21-02-2023 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271585#Comment_120271585

Absolutely nothing in that post refers too the actual time that coaches saw both players up close and personal.

Why have you ignored it?

Foxtrol · 21-02-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271585#Comment_120271585

Not sure you were around during the Munster domination years but there was no evidence that it was going to fall away like it did

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 7:39pm

Also, we consistently bash the English Premiership teams for being overrated and poor and devaluing the tournament by sending over 2nd string teams.

So why is it now suddenly a huge problem that Penny wasn't playing in Leinster's two thrashings of Gloucester? Surely the two games he played against Munster would count for far more than those two Gloucester hammerings. Or am I wrong? Are Gloucester a higher level of opposition than Munster? The narrative seems to have changed.

aloooof · 21-02-2023 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271613#Comment_120271613

It's almost getting impressive how many times I've been misquoted on this topic by now...

I didn't say "the coaches value familiarity with the Leinster system above anything else".

I didn't say, or even imply, anything close to that. You've just added that into the argument yourself and attributed it (incorrectly) to me.

But I do think familiarity with the Leinster system is a factor. Not the only factor. Not even the most important factor. A (singular) factor.

Foxtrol · 21-02-2023 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271679#Comment_120271679

Can you list and rank the factors then that you believe made up this or broader selections from the coach's perspective and which you disagree with?

Feel that would clear things up a lot.

TRC10 · 21-02-2023 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271679#Comment_120271679

But I do think familiarity with the Leinster system is a factor.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. I thought Munster had shifted to a far more Ireland-like style of play this season, so it would be far less of a stylistic shift than last season under JVG when they literally couldn't have been anymore different to Ireland. Yet even then, Beirne, POM, Murray, Casey, Carbery and Earls managed to consistently be nailed down squad members.

And Munster always had more squad members than Ulster, when Ulster were a much better side playing a much more Ireland-like brand.

aloooof · 21-02-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271699#Comment_120271699

Sure. Ability, fit to the system, exposure in camp, potential, form, fitness, experience, balance vs rest of the squad, versatility, familiarity with the system are all likely to be factors. (Then there's other more role-specific factors to consider, but they come loosely under "ability").

I'm sure there's more. It's a pretty nebulous thing. Ranking them is difficult, but obviously ability would be well up there.

I'd have gone for Hodnett in part because I think he's demonstrated better form against a higher level of opposition. I think he's a better player, who will likely continue to see gametime against a higher level of opposition.

But I can see the argument that it's a marginal call. I don't think it's outlandish to suggest Penny's familiarity with the Leinster system may have helped him.

irelandrover · 21-02-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271617#Comment_120271617

I didn't think I had to. My post wasnt about Penney over Hodnett. I actually think that's a fair call and he would have far more caps if it wasn't for injuries. The same way Connors would have more caps if it wasn't for injuries. I actually think Irelands 3 best 7s play for Leinster.

And the head coach didn't see both up close and personal, right? He wasn't on tour as far as I remember. And I also think Hodnett has stepped up significantly since that tour and is a better player now.

I don't think people are going to agree on this. Leinster fans see the better players being picked and that's absolutely the way it should be. Other provinces fans see leinster players with a few others playing and find it harder to engage with the team.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271650#Comment_120271650

There absolutely was. It was called the golden generation. It wasn't clear it was going to fall away as much but it was clear the same dominance wasn't going to continue.