Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

dublinman1990 · 16-02-2023 10:31pm

Well it appears that TCD don't want to have Metrolink built on their eastern side of their campus. They have written a submission to ABP that they want Metrolink to be built on the western side of the campus instead.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/02/16/trinity-college-seeks-change-in-proposed-metrolink-route/

It says in it's submission to ABP that having Metrolink built east of TCD will have an adverse effect on staff, students, research facilities like the Crann centre and global status of the University.

I don't know how building it on the western side of the campus will be doable particularly when you currently have bus and luas services passing College Green. And you have the new public plaza that is meant to be built at College Green from next year as well.

Were any of you surprised to know that Trinity were going to say no to the current plans for Metrolink?

prunudo · 16-02-2023 11:00pm

Surely the route is the route, they can't go redesigning or accommodating every submission.

Sam Russell · 17-02-2023 2:28pm

Mod: The last time I looked at a map of the Swords to Charlemont route, it did not go through London. So a lot of posts are due to be deleted as off topic.

Any more of this nonsense and actions will follow.

@strassenwo!f

Any more taking this off topic and you will be permanently banned from this thread.

specialbyte · 17-02-2023 2:30pm

TCD are mostly concerned about electromagnetic interference affecting some of the sensitive equipment they have in the science buildings. TBH I'd be fairly pissed off right now if I was TII seeing TCD put in that submission. It's not like TII hasn't been engaging on this issue. Here's an extract of Chapter 12 of EIAR on Eletromagnetic Capability and Stray Currents:

12.8.4.9

Trinity College Dublin Several discussions, presentations and meetings took place with stakeholders at Trinity College Dublin (TCD). Academics, facilities and administrative representatives were consulted. Equipment questionnaires were completed along with tours of the site. Notable dates include the following, with the details discussed in Chapter 8 (Consultation):

25 February 2019;

19 March 2019;

27 September 2019;

16 April 2020; and

10 February 2021.

Attached to the RO are these documents:

TII did look at re-routing the metro tunnels further away from these TCD buildings in:

A7.10 Trinity College - Alignment Options Assessment

TCD also have an extremely poor record on planning for electromagnetic interference (EMI). They built the Naughton Institute building, which is the one of the Science Gallery/TCD sports centre on the corner of Westland Row/Pearse Street, directly beside the hundred year plus old train line. They decided to put the nano sciences department into the labs beside the train line. The nano sciences department using all kinds of sensitive equipment that measures things down to the atom level. They were experiencing all kinds of EMI causing issues with their equipment and invalidating experiment results. TCD had to retrofit the rooms with the sensitive equipment with faraday cages to block out the EMI.

Sam Russell · 17-02-2023 2:40pm

I think it is a bit late for TCD to be raising issues at this stage.

cgcsb · 17-02-2023 3:27pm

If TCD are concerned about em interference they should really be putting that equipment in a rural location.

brianc89 · 17-02-2023 4:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252895#Comment_120252895

The science gallery / sports complex building was engineered to block out all vibrations caused by the train line. Special foundations were used.

I can't comment on the apparent late submission, but perhaps the Metro construction works would impact the special foundations which were built.

PopePalpatine · 17-02-2023 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250192#Comment_120250192

He prefers to the let the eggs rot to preserve the shells' architectural heritage.

JohnC. · 21-02-2023 6:59pm

Woodies want the route changed in Swords, at their store. They just want "a simple re-alignment". Something makes me think that simple re-alignments may not be so simple.

https://www.thejournal.ie/woodies-diy-object-dublin-metrolink-6000904-Feb2023/

Sam Russell · 21-02-2023 7:35pm

So Woodies will lose a few car parking spaces but will gain a Metro on its doorstep.

Hmm - how much will the Metro do for its business? I'd say a lot more than would be gained from a few car parking spaces.

LXFlyer · 21-02-2023 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271646#Comment_120271646

It’s probably fair to say that it’s a business type that doesn't get most of custom from people using public transport to be fair Sam, given the nature of many of its products.

However, this is the classic retailer fear of change. Retailers hate changes that might affect their trade. It is an irrational fear, but I’ve yet to find a retailer that doesn’t display it due to the profit margins being so tight in that industry.

bk · 21-02-2023 8:21pm

So as far as I can tell, Smyths, Woodies, etc. don't own these sites, they are just tenants. It looks like it is largely owned by Irish Life investment fund folks (not exact name obviously).

I haven't seen any complaints from the actual park owners.

I suspect the actual owners couldn't be happier about this and if given half the opportunity will happily redevelop the entire site.

I actually did some measuring and looking at just this site, from Smyths to B&Q, including the car park, but not the nearby hotel, etc. That site is the same size as Dundrum Shopping Center!!!!

Can you imagine that, if given planning permission they could develop another Dundrum on this side of the city!! And employ vastly more people then the current business there.

Just across the road from Smyths, Finglas CC plans on developing a massive new residential area (Fostertown SHD) which will include 10 storey apartment buildings. Then to the east of Airside, there will be the Barryspark & Crowcastle development, another high density apartment development with 750 homes, plus new office space for 15,000 workers!!!

The idea that a bunch of crappy, low density warehouses and ground level car parks will remain between these two high density developments and next to a Metro stop is laughable. The owners of the site will definitely want to bulldoze it all and replace it with either high density retail/office/housing depending on planning.

In the end the site would end up housing far more people and/or deliver far more jobs. It certainly won't remain as it is once the Metro comes.

Charles Babbage · 22-02-2023 4:05pm

https://www.railjournal.com/infrastructure/atkins-appointed-to-deliver-detailed-designs-for-dublin-metrolink/

jumpinsheep · 23-02-2023 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271511#Comment_120271511

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250715#Comment_120250715

Both those articles are written by the same author: Gordon Deegan and both end the same way:

"An Bord Pleanála is due to make a decision in May on the draft order" / "An Bord Pleanála is due to make a decision on the draft Railway Order in May."

I understood that the estimated time needed by ABP to review the RO, was 12 to 18 months, maybe 24, thus not earlier than Sep 2023 at the earliest. Government also need to give approval to the remaining 2 decision gates, out of 3 in total (first already given and that's why the RO was submitted).

Am I missing something or the article's author is just speculating with that timeline?

I think we're at about 4 articles recently published in newspapers, and all of them have a negative view of Metrolink. What about the 70 apartments block targeted for demolition in the city centre? No articles about it lately; are journalists saving that for last, once ABP will (likely) approve the RO, or simply ignoring it 'cause it's easier?

Yeah, no need to add comments like: nimbyism... they'll get compensated... if we look at everything we'll never build it... etc.; plenty of those earlier in the thread and the preferred route is submitted.

While TII says they made a lot of efforts working with the affected parties, it doesn't seem much the case. Or, maybe TCD / Woodie's / others, just decided to wait ABP submission to follow up. 🤷‍♂️

Also of interest is this other phrase from The Journal article: "An Bord Pleanála has confirmed that it received 318 submissions on the draft Railway Order." - while I hope that number is accurate, it seems a relatively small amount...

Hotblack Desiato · 23-02-2023 12:24am

@bk O/T but why the hell aren't they planning to build homes for 15,000 people and offices for 750, instead of the other way around???

ArmaniJeanss · 23-02-2023 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277546#Comment_120277546

I'd say 750 homes and office space for 15,000 workers is not as one-sided as the figures would seem.

Like a space of 80m2 is just one home but in an office environment it's a comfortable working area for 8/10 people. So the actual split of space home/office is a lot closer than 750/15,000 implies.

Podge_irl · 23-02-2023 1:14pm

While TII says they made a lot of efforts working with the affected parties, it doesn't seem much the case. Or, maybe TCD / Woodie's / others, just decided to wait ABP submission to follow up.

Or the TII did work with them, but the concerned bodies just figured there was no harm in submitting objections anyway.

bk · 23-02-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277546#Comment_120277546

It is 750 homes, so homes for about 2,000 people. And as AJ points out above, offices take up less space.

But also keep in mind it is just one part of a much larger Finglas development plan. For instance the Fosterstown SHD is almost completely residential, with just some small scale local shops/cafe/gym type setups on the ground floor of the apartment buildings. Similar at Estuary West.

The Barryspark development is more like two different developments in one. There is the residential section, Barryspark to the North near the Metro station, which will be next to existing housing estate. While where the offices are going is to the south, called Crowscastle. To the west of the offices there are already a bunch of office buildings, Ryanair, etc. and then to the east of it there is the Feltrim Business Park with lots of warehouses, the to south of it is Joe Duffy and Tesco. I don't think that part would be suitable for residential giving all that surrounds it is very office/commercial as is, I think more offices in that section makes a lot of sense.

Also keep in mind, Fingals CC don't just want Swords to be completely a commuter town of Dublin, where possible they want to develop local employment for people who live there, so not everyone is commuting into Dublin. I think that is a pretty good idea.

Ronald Binge Redux · 24-02-2023 9:30am

Objections to Public Transport projects ultimately raise little more than newspaper ink.

The Luas Line A public enquiry in 1998 dealt rightly and fairly in a fairly peremptory way with two high profile objections. One was from Bargaintown who complained that the trams would impede their loading, unloading and customer parking. The sole member of the tribunal pointed out that this was contrary to DCC's planning and that was the end of that.

The other case was a terrace of houses on Arran Quay East. There was a lot of hand wringing in the newspapers about a 'heart of the rowl' community being displaced. Curiously not a word since as to what did happen to either the owners of the houses or the residents.

marno21 · 02-03-2023 7:51am

https://www.enr.com/articles/56025-irish-transit-agency-aims-to-start-dublin-metro-rail-project-in-2025

Some detail here on how this will move forward. Procurement starting in 2023 and construction commencing in 2025 would be very welcome if it came to pass.

Rulmeq · 02-03-2023 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304174#Comment_120304174

>Just how much the project will cost remains uncertain, with the government forecasting a range of $8 to $13 billion.

Is that the first time that range has been mentioned?

jd · 02-03-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305105#Comment_120305105

No, some discussion here

https://assets.gov.ie/230682/6a68473b-15c6-4170-ad32-c56d682437b8.pdf

CatInABox · 02-03-2023 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305105#Comment_120305105

No, it's in either the business case, or the Railway Order I believe.

jd · 16-03-2023 11:35pm

Fingal Co Co have the observations online (no sign on ABP web site)

https://planning.agileapplications.ie/fingal/application-details/93445

ps They seem to be missing Frank McDonald's submission, which is a surprising omission

Consonata · 19-03-2023 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368104#Comment_120368104

I don't see them here, have they been taken down?

CatInABox · 19-03-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375780#Comment_120375780

No, they're there. Ignore the responses section, you're looking for the documents section. Click the link there, which will open a new window, then go to the last page or so and you'll see them there.

Consonata · 19-03-2023 6:11pm

Thanks for that. So many responses seem to be trotting out the same "duplication of infrastructure" particularly from folk who live around Charlemont who want to see ML terminate at Stephens Green. They seem concerned that it will be a terminus for folk who want to access the airporyt, yet they also oppose the line becoming "prejudicial for extension on the existing Luas Green Line".

Its bananas trying parse what these folk actually want.