Marvel Cinematic Universe general stuff

The White Wolf · 21-02-2023 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120269736#Comment_120269736

I'm sorry for offending you.

Foxtrol · 21-02-2023 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270741#Comment_120270741

BP drop isn't surprising at all - it rode the novelty of having the first black MCU hero and received good word of mouth. It was also the last movie before IW, where the hype for the MCU was at its highest. Now for the sequel it was all headwinds from the new pandemic environment, the loss of the lead actor, and the slow rebuild of the MCU so it was never going to come close to the original.

Not sure anyone can say with much certainty what impact quick availability of movies to streaming is having versus the long term change the pandemic has caused to the movie going audiences. I think there is a good argument to be made that no matter how long it takes movies to make it to streaming a lot of people are either being very selective about movies they'll go to the cinema for, if not stopped going to the cinema all together. Some families likely have written off cinemas altogether.

It isn't just Disney that have that question to answer though, Universal and Paramount are both releasing many of their movies on their streaming platforms very, some while they are still in theatres just weeks after release.

Fred Astaire · 21-02-2023 9:51pm

Just the 3rd and 12th highest grossing movies of all time released in the last 8 months, both of which were sequels. Definitely signs of long term damage there. 🤣

Brief_Lives · 21-02-2023 10:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271765#Comment_120271765

buddy, you don't offend me, actually The White Wolf is an awesome username..

I just don't know how you can listen to that woman without wanting to jam a fork in your hand.

The White Wolf · 21-02-2023 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120272400#Comment_120272400

She can be an idiot but she does get the inside track on other occasions like most reporters. They're going to get it right and wrong when their niche is hunting for "scoops." For example I don't care what Gunn says, she had it right that there was an issue with Cavill's announced return.

silverharp · 22-02-2023 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120265745#Comment_120265745

its not guaranteed its actually breakeven yet. Compared to the original Ant Man, less people are going to see it and it cost more to make. It needs to crack 600m.

they need to get their costs down or they will have more misses even if their movies get to number one on each release.

Foxtrol · 22-02-2023 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273961#Comment_120273961

'More misses' - MCU is up to 30 movies now and it is arguable whether they've ever made a loss.

This one did just under $400m over its first weekend.

I think it will but why would it need to crack 600m? It is widely reported that the budget was ~$200m.

Penn · 22-02-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120276684#Comment_120276684

Generally the budget doesn't include marketing costs or the cinema's cut. Marketing for Marvel movies could easily be 100m or more by itself. Cinema's cut of ticket sales can depend, the likes of Disney have a lot of power to negotiate the cinema taking a lower cut than usual due to the large audience those films get.

A 200m budget for the film could still easily need to make 400-500m to make it break even. But even then Disney don't want to break even, they want a huge return.

Foxtrol · 22-02-2023 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120276757#Comment_120276757

I get that general economics, which don't take into account other forms of income from the movie, but my point still stands regarding the 600m or it is deemed a miss. 600m is far more likely to be the line for it to be seen as a huge success.

Disney obviously want as much money in any situation but Ant-man is at best a B list hero (I'd say more C) and I very much doubt they're expecting a huge return from it, especially how the pandemic has generally changed things. Solo hero movies (and to a lesser extent TV shows) are nice consistent paydays, they aren't all expected to make huge numbers - those expectations and bigger paydays come on the event team up movies.

silverharp · 22-02-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120276684#Comment_120276684

Eternals will have lost money , production cost was 200m before Marketing and only took in 400m , Antman hasnt taken in 400m yet, it was around $225 according to Variety, it could finish in the 700m range, the next weekend drop off is normally a good indication, but if it did only take in 600m then it wouldnt be classed as a success for the studio. I assume Guardians will do well but The Marvels wont so could be a mixed bag for the studio this year.

Foxtrol · 22-02-2023 11:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277155#Comment_120277155

You're guessing it lost money - it is far from clear that it did.

Trying to cost marketing or profit expectations during a peak pandemic is impossible for us or even experts.

On the marketing side along, advertising was being near given away as there was little to promote and there wasnt the usual spend on worldwide travel etc.

No way I am saying that it was a success but it no where close to other obvious comic book movie clear 'misses'.

pjohnson · 23-02-2023 1:56am

Always a bit of a dodgy sign when profits start being brought into a discussion on quality, Michael Bay + The Fast and The Furious are financial behemoths but are in no way linked to quality.

silverharp · 23-02-2023 8:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277723#Comment_120277723

if a franchises is clearly making bucket loads then you have to salute it. Marvel on the other hand looks like it peaked with End Game and cracks are appearing. The fun part is watching what they do to attempt to course correct.

titan18 · 23-02-2023 8:40am

Just anecdotal, but I'd usually go to every MCU release, but with the lack of recent quality from them and reviews making this sound like more of the same, I'm skipping Ant Man and will just watch it on Disney Plus in a few months (I reckon it's a possible release around Easter). They really need to get back to good quality films, especially when the characters aren't as popular.

pixelburp · 23-02-2023 9:36am

Until a MCU film properly flops though, and I mean tanking to the degree something like Mobius did, any discussion about the franchise's death is wildly premature. My analogy was of an important member of a band leaving still seems apt. It's still there, just sounds different - next it's whether the audience still enjoys this sound.

The closest we've come to a flop has been Eternals, and IMO its low performance was as much pandemic caution, as it was the critical reaction (though that undoubtedly didn't help). Black Widow was similar; technically underperforming but came out during CoVid. Not sure why it doesn't get thrown out as quickly 'cos while I haven't seen Eternals, BW was a wet fart of a film. And even if a film does flop, it might blow up Disney+ - so not all bad? It's hard to know either way.

I do think there's slippage in the cultural enthusiasm for the overall franchise, but waning interest hasn't quite manifest at the box-office. Yet. It's obvious the way Marvel thinks it can top EndGame will be to throw out the Multiverse - what's bigger than one universe in peril? All the universes! - but to me, the sheer colossal success of EndGame has always hung around like that itchy feeling that ... well. The franchise ended. The stories were done. You can't top Thanos & all those cultural icons like Cap or Tony leaving. Shang-Chi was fun enough but was no Iron Man.

~Rebel~ · 23-02-2023 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277975#Comment_120277975

Yeah, would agree with a lot of that. End Game felt like such a full stop. And a huge factor (for me at least) in its success was the fact that the build up to all happened over years with a story grown steadily from a very grounded relatable world the same as our own. Seeing our reality gradually adapt to the scattered inclusion of a few supers kept it emotionally engaging, and kept the characters closer to home.

Chunks of this new phase are starting off already a few abstractions away from our own world with so much wacky alien stuff already having happened (there's half a celestial poking out of the planet now, easily visible from space ffs), so it's just never going to have the same feeling as the emergence of the first batch of heroes to a world that had never seen anything like them.

Loughc · 23-02-2023 12:38pm

I feel like I need to clarify my comment regarding rapidly dying. I was referring to the MCU phase approach. I don’t believe after phase 6 the MCU will continue with the phase approach. I do believe the current incarnation of the MCU is dying.

And after phase 6 we will see a much more paired back, less content and connectivity MCU. I think they will go more stand along approach and stick to a 1 or 2 movie a year release.

I believe the Phase approach has burnt out. They essentially killed the essence of antman movies by trying to force the big bad of phase 5 front and centre. And if anything it made the big bad look weak imo.

Brief_Lives · 23-02-2023 1:23pm

Not sure about that. I see the logic in it, as Phase 4 was such a disaster. Maybe we can judge better after Phase 5.

As an uber nerd, I hope they sort it out, the infinity saga was such a brilliant 11 years.

johnny_ultimate · 23-02-2023 1:40pm

This isn't a commentary on the quality of the films or their approach to serialised storytelling, but the whole 'phases' thing has always been a bit of marketing bullshit over something really tangible. I do think there was at least some more consistency in that first stretch of films (a bunch of individual titles leading up to a crossover event, x3), but really it's entirely arbitrary at this stage where 'phase 4' ends and 'phase 5' begins. Indeed, they just changed where those phases begin and end on the fly last year.

But really it's a phrase that's primarily of use to Marvel and Disney marketing teams rather than something any viewer should really take particularly seriously.

Penn · 23-02-2023 2:05pm

I think they know they'll never replicate what they had, so they're only using Avengers-type films towards the end of sagas rather than one at the end of each phase. So we'll be getting Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars (possibly in two parts) towards the end of Phase 6. It does make the phase thing a bit more redundant though I guess it comes down to Phase 4: setting up the multiverse, Phase 5: Kang throughout the multiverse and time, Phase 6: battle against Kangs.

Foxtrol · 23-02-2023 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278980#Comment_120278980

Agree with most of this, especially how they're now looking at the the next three phases post Endgame.

Feel the perception of some is tainted by the peak of the MCU, with IW and Endgame, and doesn't really align to what actually happened during the first 3 phases.

Yes, they had some level of additional structure due to being bookended by an Avenger movie but overall it was as loose as the phases you're saying for this batch: Phase 1: setting up the Avengers, Phase 2: Infinity stones throughout the universe, Phase 3: setting up the pieces and the battle against Thanos.

At this point in the Infinity Saga, IM3 was just released, which ended like he was hanging (blowing up his suit). Next movie coming up was the universally acclaimed Thor 2... If I remember right it was between those two movies Phase 2 was announced and there was general annoyance about Avengers AoU, that the tease of Thanos wouldn't be dealt with at the end of that Phase. AoU wasn't even a true bookend movie of that phase, just a random Avenger movie thrown in.

There isnt a world of difference now, especially when you take into account how the pandemic and other outside factors resulted in movie order changes and rewrites.

silverharp · 23-02-2023 6:54pm

looks like Marvel have a problem walking and chewing gum, it might work out better to slow the conveyor belt a tad

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1628451434319544324

Penn · 23-02-2023 8:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280242#Comment_120280242

They've pushed The Marvels back from July to November partially for that reason.

silverharp · 23-02-2023 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280621#Comment_120280621

thats actually a good reason

~Rebel~ · 24-02-2023 12:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280897#Comment_120280897

Yeah, would much rather see something the way it was intended, rather than rushed out the door.

flazio · 24-02-2023 6:23am

They actually joked about that on She Hulk, "Jen please turn human off screen, our VFX team are working elsewhere" <cue Black Panther drums>

pixelburp · 24-02-2023 7:24am

Wonder what the timelines of the FX for AntMan 3 and Wakanda Forever were, cos after the bad press over Love and Thunder I'd have hoped Marvel at least try to improve their FX and working conditions. Perhaps those wheels had already started turning and was too late to change. Mind you, given the films' success Marvel obviously don't see a need either; nothing has changed since the Life Of Pi controversy after all

Foxtrol · 24-02-2023 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280621#Comment_120280621

Maybe partially but that was a tiny part of the decision to push it - it was far more a welcome bonus of moving it than a driver of the decision.

Far more important was the huge gap they had due to another movie being pushed back, where they would have had 4 Marvel movies in a 5 months period (3 MCU & Spiderverse) and then a 10 month gap before the next MCU one in May next year.

silverharp · 24-02-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284254#Comment_120284254

one complication though, the film will now be sandwiched between Dune 2 and The Hunger Games, week before and week after I think.

Foxtrol · 24-02-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284466#Comment_120284466

No idea Hunger Games had another movie coming out.

Will be interesting to see how Dune 2 does this time round. The original was released 2 weeks before Eternals and did worse than it. Though that could be partially explained by HBO releasing their movies to stream simultaneously as in the theatres, if I remember correctly.

Marvel Cinematic Universe general stuff

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