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rsa supporting e-scooters

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,129 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    That is so f**king ridiculous. Much like in Ireland, the police here totally ignore motorists driving/parking on footpaths but they have a problem with this adorable scene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,929 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Getting slaughtered in the comments at least.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    At one point the car is doing 5mph and is still catching up to the scooter. Seems like a ridiculous decision



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    meant to come back to this point - i think it's somewhat relevant in the sense that insurance for e-scooters could be used as a trojan horse by the sort of people who want bikes to be insured, and regulated more than they are now.

    i doubt it'd be likely to succeed, the government aren't going to bring in reg plates and mandatory insurance for cyclists, but there's a crossover in the arguments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭inigo


    Committee Stage in the Seanad (stage 8/11) this Wednesday at 3pm. 🤞

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/seanad-schedule/?selecteddate=2023-02-01



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    It is understood the man was travelling on the e-scooter along the Burrin Manor cycleway at about 9.40pm when he hit a bollard and fell.




  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭ExoPolitic




  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭inigo




  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    Apologies, I was reading from an outdated source.


    The report stage was dated for the 7th of February, did that happen?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    So as it currently stands e scooters etc. are still considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles requiring tax, license and insurance (which can't be had)?

    Just checking.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there's been no change enacted in legislation yet, so yes, they're still legally MPVs.

    i've not seen any reports of gardai stopping anyone and confiscating them on that basis in many months though; i have heard of idiots being assholes on them and attracting garda attention, but they're paying no heed to normal users.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I work in the city centre - the gardai literally watch them (and throttle ebikes) go past, like every other road traffic offence.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    I can issues down the line with e scooters etc.

    1/. Liability. There will inevitably be collisions with pedestrians and injuries too. Who pays?

    2/. Compliance. The 25kph limit sounds reasonable but electric motors are quite easily modified, and one scooter that's limited for 25kph looks identical to another that'll do two or three times that speed.

    3/. I've seen these machines being routinely driven on pavements. Without even enforcement of whatever regulations are enacted it'll be a mess. Early signs aren't good - Gardai are seemingly turning a blind eye to e scooters etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    They're already in widespread use - presumably by people less concerned with breaking the law than those waiting for the legislation. There's no evidence of the "inevitable" collisions and injuries, similarly with point 3. And I'm not convinced there's an increased risk versus "normal" bicycles, or skateboards, or rollerblades etc tbh.

    Point 2 applies to any motorised vehicle? If not sticking to speed limits was a reason to ban a vehicle, there'd only be bicycles left!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    re point 2; if someone is clearly doing more than 25km/h, it's reasonable to then confiscate unless the owner is fully paperworked up.

    but that would depend on garda enforcement; they don't enforce speed limits in general in the city, for vehicles weighing many multiples of the scooters, so i don't expect they'll be speed checking scooters.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    1. Same as happens in any situation with an accident, it is sorted out between the parties if nothing serious. Realistically, with the exception of the few outliers, this will actually not be a major thing if all other rules are enforced. The person deemed to have caused the accident will pay.
    2. Same as any speed limited vehicle for a zone, if the gardai catch you over the limit, then you are fined or it is seized presumably.
    3. And this is the same as any road traffic enforcement, enforcement is minimal, that's why so many motorists don't bother taxing, many don't even bother insuring. Most of my neighbours have a yellow reg car as their second family car but that's not exclusive to the countryside, I see parents dropping off their kids on the N11 with their yellow reg land rovers. You had the acting garda commissioner a few years ago saying speeding wasn't a thing because they weren't catching many people, I see lads booting it up the bus lane daily on the N11 to skip traffic. Phone use while driving is endemic.

    The truth is that the majority of scooters are commuters, doing no more than 20kmph and basically acting like bicycles. Those speeding, if there is enforcement will be caught but if there is no enforcement then they would do it anyway.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    1/. Trouble is that the e scooter has no reg. plates, and by it's nature it would be very easy to just scoot away in the event of a collision with a pedestrian. Furthermore even if the e scooter rider remained at the scene they may have no ability to pay for damages. They certainly won't have any insurance cover.

    2/. The fact that a limited e scooter looks identical to a modified one is a problem. Gardai would stop an obviously illegal car irrespective of speed. The e scooter is therefore wide open to illegal modification, and that will only increase risk.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the irony is that a scooter capable of doing greater than allowed would be illegal, no matter what speed it was doing.

    but a car capable of breaking the limit is only illegal when actually breaking the limit. (yes, i know it's the driver breaking the law there, not the car)

    to be fair, there's supposedly automatic speed restrictions in cars since the middle of last year, but you can see an inconsistency in a small vehicle being capable of doing say 35km/h is illegal by its very nature, but a car capable of 300km/h is fine until it actually is captured going faster than the limit.


    anyway - to make the point in another way, let's say you have a scooter capable of doing 35km/h - what could or should the punishment be? in this hypothetical scenario, you've a tiny vehicle capable of going 10km/h over the limit. a fine for a motorist driving a vehicle weighing much, much more than the scooter, for exceeding the limit, is i think €160 and three penalty points. should the punishment for using a scooter beyond the limit be proportionally smaller?

    for the sake of the hypothetical scenario, i reckon a typical scooter & rider combo would weigh less than 100kg, and a motorist & car combo, about 1,500kg.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    1. I have been hit and knocked by a taxi running a red light in the middle of Dublin, even with a car make and model, rough time, partial plates, apparently nothing there to stop him just driving off leaving me lying on the road so the reg plates thing isn't a thing, people will either stop or they won't. Reg plates large enough to be readable won't be attachable to a scooter adn the cost of implementing such a system wouldn't cover the cost of the state would pay out in healthcare through the HSE.
    2. That's the same with any motor vehicle. Like all vehicles, it's if the vehicle gets caught in the act.

    Your main issue here is that there are not enough Gardai to enforce the law, so the new rules will do little to change what is already happening. So far though, what is happening is not the worst thing in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    And I still come back to the cohort who may get one in the future are probably more likely to stick to the law anyway, given they're holding off until they are in any way legal to use on the public road. I can speak for myself in that I am holding off converting a bike to ppt until I have confirmation what I will do will be legal.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The ETSC (European Transport Safety Council) of which the RSA are a member have proposed the following:

    • the use of helmets should be made compulsory
    • a minimum age of 16
    • a ban on the use of e-scooters on footpaths
    • a ban on users carrying passengers

    (Don't read the comments which propose high-viz, licences, driving tests, insurance, etc.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Interesting they propose helmets, when I don't think ETSC propose them for cycling?

    Also, rolleyes at the journal - they actually propose a minimum size rather than a reduction (it'd be an increase on most I see).

    It suggests there should be a minimum wheel size of 30.5 centimetres on the devices as research had shown there was increased stability with large wheel sizes when going over potholes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I've never ridden one but my impression is there's a higher chance of "taking a header" on a scooter than on a bike due to the wheel size and body position. OTOH if they become mandatory on scooters it's only a matter of time before the usual clammer starts for the same rule for bikes.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I presume the helmet proposal is due to this...

    They showed that both a rider and pedestrian were likely to suffer severe injuries in a collision with an e-scooter travelling at 20km/h, with the pedestrian more likely to suffer fatal injuries.

    Studies estimated that collisions resulting in injury are up to 10 times higher for e-scooter riders than cyclists.

    ...

    The ETSC said the number of casualties from collisions involving e-scooters were underreported but studies to date had shown 20-50% of casualties attending hospital had suffered head injuries with very few riders wearing helmets.

    In addition, a majority of riders were involved in single vehicle collisions, while intoxication of e-scooter users appeared a problem.

    While I think the idea to make the minimum wheel size to 30.5cm makes sense in terms of being able to overcome road defects, etc. it will make e-scooters less portable and therefore affect their attractivness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭Schorpio


    I'm sure injuries from e-sccoter collisions are under-reported, but I'd wager that 20-50% would go down if reporting increased.

    If a person sustains minor injuries doing something (technically) illegal, then they aren't likely to be honest about how they got those injuries. Serious injuries will likely be observed at the scene.

    (20 - 50% also seems like a huge variability in the study range).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    It's one of those ranges that shows the dataset is either too small or too varied between areas that nothing can be really taken from it. Much like on a bike, if I have a minor injury, in my head its not really an injury unless it impedes me from something else, I imagine many scooterists are the same.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I would agree with min age, not riding on footpaths just makes total sense but I'm not in agreement on passengers and helmets.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    AFAIK a bicycle is only legally allowed carry as many people as there are seats on the bike, in the UK. i wouldn't have much issue with the 'no passengers' rule.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I wasn't suggesting it was a good thing, just that the sub-ed's hadn't properly read the report. Again, I don't see the ETSC proposing banning Brompton type bicycles, so why do it with scooters?

    Until they are clear on what injuries there actually are, cause of injuries/ accidents and the state of the people involved, it doesn't seem they really have the evidence to back up their wish list. If you're intoxicated to the degree you don't have control of your bicycle you can be arrested - you just extend that to scooters/ ppt's.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Brompton wheels are about 35-40cm in diameter though. Easily meet the minimum mentioned here.



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