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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Of course you can't say how effective they are and why is that? Because the data shows nothing.

    Which is what the peer reviewed Cochrane study shows and a senior member of NPHET also says.

    But you can wear a mask if you want. I'll look at the science and data and not wear one unless forced by law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Just trying to get this straight, masks weren't really to reduce the spread of the virus, they were to "control us" because our government (all the world's governments) want to emulate China?

    Basically the restrictions weren't due to the pandemic or science - that it was really political, to repress and subjugate us somehow?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    Wear your mask all day if you want, but thankfully they're no longer legally required for the rest of us who have gotten back to normal, and I mean the original 2019 normal, not the fake, constructed, hoped for, new covid normal.

    I will say though, I do miss the days when I was able to wear a mask under my nose in the supermarket.

    Good times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    Of course there was an element of control, that's blatantly obvious. They threw out the pandemic plan that had been finalised just before covid kicked off and adopted the Chinese approach, almost every country did.

    They introduced laws that forced us to wear masks with specified penalties for not doing so... I thought you knew that seeing as you seem to know everything else about the masks.

    They completely skipped the carrot and went straight to the stick... If that's not exerting some form of control over the population using the legal system, I don't know what it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    So my local TD wanted me to wear a mask during the pandemic, not for public health reasons, but for nefarious reasons to "control" me.

    Why?

    I've noticed these types of views among internet anti-lockdown, anti-mask types. I don't think it's a coincidence.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Take a look at the studies that show reduction in particle transmission by masks, there is a wealth of data out there. The reason we cannot say how effective they are is because of all the variables, such as people not wearing the properly, different types of masks being worn, etc.

    There is no question that properly wearing a mask reduces the risk of transmission.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    I'm anti-mask, anti-restriction, anti anything to do with covid, I won't even type covid with a capital "C" I despise it and everything associated with it that much.

    Pro-maskers can't have it all their own way, there's needs to be an opposing voice or voices. Unfortunately the pro lobby gets all the air time, the anti maskers are not given a voice, not publicly anyway, but at least those in power have finally seen the light again and resisted calls for masks over the last flu season.

    I have no idea who your local TD is, but he or she toed the NPHET line, and the party whip, they didn't want to incur Tony's wrath, nor did they want to have voters dying on their watch, so they went for the easier option.

    i wouldn't trust the word of a TD as far as i could throw them... they areas bent as bejaysus, all they care about is votes and not looking dirty.

    Look at Phil Hogan and the supreme court judge in Clifden, Boris Johnson in the UK, and the various governors in the USA.... they all adopted the "do as I say, not as I do" mantra and flaunted the rules.

    You picked a very bad example of using a TD as a shining beacon of public health advice. If my local TD told me it was raining I'd go outside and check for myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,562 ✭✭✭jackboy


    You are correct, there is no doubt that masks reduce the risk of transmission. However, when there are high levels of virus in the population this is no longer relevant as people are exposed over and over again. Maybe a mask will stop you getting the virus for a couple of hours or a day but real world experience showed that if you are in public while the virus is ripping through the population, you are getting infected quickly, mask or no mask.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's no longer a conspiracy when a member on NPHET admits to our response being inhumane, anti science and using fear for vested interests.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is a question when it doesn't show up in the global data and peer reviewed studies show otherwise.

    Wear a mask if you want though. I don't care.

    It was only ever one side that wanted to force them on everyone.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    Again, you're another person who disagrees with a dissenting voice and because you're not capable of saying anything better, you simply slap "conspiracy theory nutter" on me.... In that case you may as well just call me Aunty Starmix66 😂

    Not all of us rolled over and took one for the team in the name of "science" just because "de man on de telly" said so. I don't have blind faith, I don't believe in God and I certainly don't believe in Tony. I also don't have full faith in their science either, it was manipulated to suit their needs at the time.

    How about the time the EU tried to get the South Africans to doctor their covid report to say that whatever variant they discovered was more deadly than it actually was?

    You can't trust politicians or the "science" if it's being used to push an agenda. That is a fact, and that is just the first example that springs to mind.

    And for the record, I never wore a mask correctly, I had to protest somehow, anything else and you got stomped on. No one wants to be the nail that gets hammered after all... you need to make the best of a bad situation or you'll go completely crazy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    "Not all of us rolled over and took one for the team

    You don't even have the courage of your convictions, I'd have more respect for someone who misguidedly refused to wear a mask because of their beliefs, but you can't even do that, you rolled over and put a mask on and then slide a bit under your nose in secret-protest...seems like cowardly behavior to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    Convict what now?

    Call me a coward all you want, I don't care, I had no interest in protesting and possibly getting arrested, only to have the media then publish my full name and address, leading to me being ostracized by people who know me, and possibly also getting fired.

    Unfortunately protesting in Ireland during the covid had real life consequences, it was in fact illegal, and despite my convictions, I had to balance all that with paying for the mortgage, so small protest it was.

    People were outdoing themselves to be judge, jury & executioner... the government literally had us by the short and curlys all in the name of public health.

    It's easy for you to to complain about me not fully following through on my convictions when it was your side calling all the shots and the government was singing your tune, you didn't need to protest, you were happy to watch the rest of us being forced to wear masks.

    Thankfully I don't need your respect, you're just another random keyboard warrior on the internet, same as myself and everyone else on boards, except now you're on the losing side and you don't like it. Masks are thankfully a thing of the past despite what the die hards mask lovers want.

    The restrictions are gone, Tony is gone, NPHET are gone, and the unions thankfully didn't get their way with the masks over Christmas.

    We just need to ditch those mask rules in the doctors surgery now.... they're just an unwelcome hangover from the covid era.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,356 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Your posts are deliberately mudding the waters and conspiracy theory dog whistling.

    All laws involve an element of control. But they are brought in by democratic governments to serve a public policy goal. The goal is not 'control' of the population. It is reduction in X or increase in Y. Not control as an end in itself.

    Now, regardless of whether you think they were effective or justified.

    Do you accept that masks were rolled out by the Irish government, approved by cabinet, because they sincerely and genuinely thought they would help to reduce covid cases?

    And no other motivation?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    More big words and name calling because I'm a dissenting voice.... Just because it's a law, doesn't make it a just law.

    The government needed to control us to be seen to do something, so they threw out the agreed pandemic action plan, adopted the Chinese approach, clutched at a few straws, locked us down, introduced masks and hoped for the best.

    They were more worried about saving votes than public health, and it was quite clear that they were hiding behind NPHET.

    If they really cared about public health they would have taken a step back and done a proper cost / benefit analysis with regards to the socioeconomic impact of the restrictions and the knock on effect of missed medical diagnoses, and don't give me the line that it was a emergency, it's not like the tanks were rolling over the border.

    I mean, if they really, really cared about public health they wouldn't have cleared old folk out of the hospitals and clustered them in retirement homes...

    I've never met a politician who was more interested in the public than they were about getting themselves voted back in and staying in power. And like I said earlier, if a politician told me that it was raining outside, I'd go outside and check for myself first before believing them.

    They're not to be trusted.

    It's curious that the same government who initially locked us down was the same government that told the unions to take a hike when they were looking for masks at Christmas.

    That tells me that they will swing whatever way the popular winds are blowing, and that for all the shouting the unions did about masks, the government decided not to opt for that approach this time.

    That also tells me that they either know masks are pointless, or than an election is coming, or maybe even a bit of both.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,356 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Where does Cormican say the response was motivated by control of the population as an end on itself?

    Where does he say masks were inhumane or anti science?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,356 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nope they didnt.

    For starters the covid situation between 2020 and 2022 had changed dramatically due to variants and vaccines and therefore how many severe cases derive from widespread transmission. You ignore all of that.

    When mask mandates were brought in we had had months of pubs were shut and we have restrictions on movements. Such measures were all part of WHO pandemic plan not merely aping China. All of this was not done for control as an end in itself but out of a sincere basis that it would reduce spread of covid. It was not done just in Ireland. Politicians were listening to the advice of their health authorities. It was not some political solo run by Irish politicians.

    It was an emergency as we saw in Wuhan and Italy. The ambulances were at the gate. In the UK estimates were that tens of thousands of lives could have been saved by earlier lockdown.

    Your attempt at revisionism is therefore wrong on basic timelines and facts.

    Therefore to present this as 'needing to control' is just conspiracy theory dog whistling.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want... I have no idea what dog whistling is, so that slur is lost on me. Your opinion matters as much to me as my opinion matters to you.

    The main thing you should remember is that we have come out the far side of the covid panic, restrictions and mask wearing are thankfully a thing of the past, doctors surgeries excepted, but we'll keep whittling away at that one too.

    We can breathe on whomever we want again and we can stand as close to them as we want... surprisingly enough we went back to 2019 normal pretty fast, so much for restrictions and masks becoming the new normal.

    Enjoy your dog whistling and other big words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Right, why do politicians all over the world want to make us wear masks during a pandemic if there's no reason for it? e.g. I'm a politician, I want to make my constituents wear masks, why exactly..

    How are these views any different from Alex Jones low-brow views that all politicians are cartoon villains who want to make us wear masks to "control us".

    So far, seems identical to me. As mentioned a lot of anti-maskers seem to have these strange views.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    Would it put your mind at ease if I just caved in and said that I couldn't be bothered about wearing a mask?

    Any dissenting voice instantly makes a mask non-believer Alex Jones... That's quite childish really, kind of like calling someone with glasses "4-eyes" because you can't think of anything else to say.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Like many people I don't like wearing a mask either, but I don't feel the need to invent some big conspiracy about being persecuted. That's silly stuff.

    If you don't want to be compared to people like Alex Jones, then I suggest not repeating his conspiracy views verbatim. Simply an observation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 Starmix66


    I invented nothing about being persecuted.

    I, along with lots others, felt that the mask mandate, along with the other restrictions, were pointless and an overreach of authority.

    I personally refused to accept wearing them or the logic behind them, still do, and I will complain about masks until the cows come home, and then a bit more after that for good measure.

    I believe that the masks were an unnecessary and unrequested imposition on my freedoms, the freedoms I had up until the mask mandate and other restrictions were introduced.

    So yes, to use your word, I felt persecuted, but that's my opinion, not something I read on Twitter. I'd rather take my chances with covid that wear a mask "just in case".

    How does my strong personal desire to not wear a mask and instead take my chances with covid make me Alex Jones?

    Don't tell me mask wearing is for the greater good and to protect others.... wear a mask if you want and stay clear of me, just don't push your fears and masks on me.

    It's all over now anyway, thankfully the masks got thrown in the bin along with all the other restrictions when omicron came along and they couldn't justify continuing the restrictions no matter how hard they tried.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Read the article. He quite literally talks about our whole response being anti science and inhumane. He talks about using fear for vested agendas.

    It's not necessarily control. Those agenda's can be anything.


    Again, this is no longer conspiracy stuff. Holohan appeared on live TV with a fear o meter and moaned that people were no longer scared enough.

    A senior member of NPHET now admits that fear was used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    There is an interesting post here discussing the whole mask question,

    https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/do-masks-work

    Section at the end explains why that Cormican review is not the be all and end all some think it is.

    The author cites all her sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,356 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    First of all, that is not the conspiracy that was being alleged in the present discussion which was about control as an end in itself. So I've no idea what strawman conspiracy you've invented to argue against.

    Second of all, nope he doesn't say that. I have the article in front of me and nowhere does he say that.

    Find us the exact quote where he says the whole response was anti science and inhumane.

    Nowhere does he say that masks were inhumane or anti science in the version I am reading.

    Or accept you are dishonestly and deliberately misrepresenting his views.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If something really worked so well you wouldn't need lots of various peer reviewed studies to see it. It would be clear from the data.

    The fact that it's not speaks volumes. Large peer reviewed studies are now confirming what we observed. And even a senior member of our own NPHET.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,356 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    How about you present the parameters for an ethical real world RCT in a pandemic that would generate this data.

    Large peer reviewed studies have not confirmed mask mandates were of no benefit. Point us to the particular study which demonstrates this if you dispute this.

    The closest that was put together was the study from Bangladesh with masks and social distancing which showed a clear reduction in cases with only a modest adoption of them - both of which Cormican takes an issue with.

    We don't have the 'clear' data you seem to think is required for public health decisions and such decisions that were taken such as banning smoking in pubs did not rely on RCTs. RCTs are not actually typically relied upon for such decisions because of the difficulty of assessing 'indirect' impact.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Maybe that is the difference between you and me, I consider proven peer reviewed studies to be scientific data, you somehow consider science to be the opposite of evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭political analyst


    If NPHET was wrong about the mask mandate then so were the health authorities of every other country in Western Europe (except Sweden) and in most of the rest of the world!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It wasn't many others, that's the thing, it was a fringe. I know many who don't like wearing masks, but I know no one who was or is anti-mask. Personally I had my own issues with measures and restrictions, but like most rational people, I understood them on principle.

    I provided you with an opportunity to make sense of your views and you couldn't. It's obvious to anyone you have an irrational distrust of authority which extends to the mask mandate. It's something I've noticed among most anti-maskers on this forum. All 14 of them.



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