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Reflection on the pandemic: questions about the authorities' response.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nope I did not.

    I said covid represented a threat to public health systems ability to function which was in some ways worse than cancer - it is highly infectious, spreads from patients to staff and vice versa. So it has a capacity to flood hospitals and reduce staff and capacity in short duration that cancer does not.

    This has been misrepresented into implying I made a general unqualified point that "covid was worse than cancer".

    As you just did.

    So if you think I said otherwise find the post - otherwise if repeated you know you are deliberately misrepresenting another posters views.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Its not harmless to kids. You are making medical claims without foundation.

    And its not harmless to their teachers.

    And not harmless to the close contacts of teachers.

    And kinda hard to teach kids if the teachers are downed by covid.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can you remind me how many kids of a school going age died?

    When you get those figures for me, consider what the senior member of NPHET said below.

    "Did we adequately consider the short-term and long-term unintended consequences for health and wellbeing of prohibitions that disrupted established patterns of social and economic activity for a very long period of time?”


    Cormican added that “children from areas of deprivation and those with special needs and their families were effectively abandoned for months.”


    “For many of them the harm will continue for years and decades if not for life.”


    He continued that increased antisocial behaviour in some areas of Dublin led him to wonder “how many of them might have been on a different life path, if the structure of their lives had been not been broken for months by lack of access to education”



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Proof of your medical misinformatio is below.

    Covid-19 has become the eighth most common cause of death among children in the United States, according to a study published Monday.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/30/health/covid-deaths-children/index.html

    Does he explain how education is to continue if teachers are sick?

    Put the kids into empty classrooms?

    As for increased anti social behaviour has he been living under a rock pre covid? Talk about clutching at straws.

    Has he adequately considered all the impacts of the alternative course he thinks should have been pursued.

    Can he guarantee that none of these kids with specials needs or in deprived areas would lose the valuable support of a family member to covid?

    Can he quantify that impact?

    Im going to say... no.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,317 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Teachers should have wanted to come to school to work as they claim it's a vocation. That's certainly been undermined.

    And yes windows should have been kept closed. This was stated at that time but due to hysteria and the strength of nasty teachers, the windows were kept open. A generation of kids have a negative impression of selfish teachers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Ah c'mon, you are reaching now. We should be able to discuss this rationally. It's a fair comment to make that Covid is harmless to the vast vast majority of children.

    I remember some parents going bananas when they saw 2 children cycling together outdoors during a Level 5 lockdown. It was very wrong.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ha!

    So you're dismissing this:

    Can you remind me how many kids of a school going age died?

    When you get those figures for me, consider what the senior member of NPHET said below.

    "Did we adequately consider the short-term and long-term unintended consequences for health and wellbeing of prohibitions that disrupted established patterns of social and economic activity for a very long period of time?”

    Cormican added that “children from areas of deprivation and those with special needs and their families were effectively abandoned for months.”

    “For many of them the harm will continue for years and decades if not for life.”

    With hand waving and fear mongering about Covid being the 8th most common cause of death among children?!

    So a lot less deadly than suicide. Which are are on the rise since 2020. Oddly enough.

    Also more kids are murdered in the US than die of Covid.

    And what do you know? Accidents kill more children than Covid.

    I guess that's why the authors state: "Because deaths among US CYP are rare, the mortality burden of COVID-19 in CYP is best understood in the context of all other causes of CYP death."



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So you accept covid isnt harmless to kids then. Your post accepts it was the 8th leading cause of death.

    If its the 8th leading cause of death then obviously that means other causes are more significant.

    I dont see how it is fear mongering to point this out in response to a post which claims covid is harmless to kids. Such a claim is false medical misinformation. Noted that you did not challenge such a false claim - yet you jump in when I query it.

    Further it was the 5th leading cause of death for age 15-19 in the US.

    So I entirely reject your accusation as without merit or foundation.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭slystallone


    2 weeks to flatten the curve and still here 3 years later and they are still insisting on masks in hospitals and dentists. Farce.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    There are a few Covid diehards hanging in there. Even the speech by Cormican who is an expert in this area is not enough for them.

    You have to double down and pretend that kids were dying all the time because of a sniffle from Covid, and this justified them loosing months of education, development and social skills. They have to justify their position, no matter now with Hindsight how ridiculous it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Don't Chute!


    Wow you’re REALLY not happy with this guy going off the reservation are you? There was a time when, if he told you standing on your head prevented the spread of Covid you probably would have done it just because he was a member of the beloved Nphet. Oh how the mighty have fallen.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Yes I accept it was the 8th leading cause of death. And I accept kids in US are over 9 times more likely to die from an accident than Covid. So they are at significantly lower risk from Covid than are they are from the routine of daily life.

    You made your point about it being 8th leading cause of death for kids in response to a post in which the poster asked you to consider Cormican's remarks in the context of the dangers of covid to kids vs the long term dangers of lockdowns and shutting schools etc.

    In this context you ignored the fact that children are over three times as likely to die from suicide which suggests you are either blinkered or disingenuous. Or perhaps both.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Was in hospital last week overnight and yes you had to wear a mask but funnily enough not in the canteen. Those sort of ridiculous rules just made a mockery of restrictions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It wasnt the only point I made though was it in response to Cormicans comments. Well?

    I also posted this:

    Can he guarantee that none of these kids with specials needs or in deprived areas would lose the valuable support of a family member to covid? Can he quantify that impact?

    So your claims about blinkers and disingenuousness ring hollow.

    You have latched onto that one point and misrepresented it as if it formed the entirety of my response. It did not. I challenged it as a false statement on its own merits.

    You even accept that the statement that covid was harmless to kids to be false.

    Yet you did not challenge it but rather the poster who challenges such medical misinformation!

    Incredible stuff.

    And that you did not challenge such an obviously false statement speaks volumes.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,317 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    What's bizarre is some people still treat covid as a serious thing. What planet are these people on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,449 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    How much was the food in the canteen? It may have been safe depending on the prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,987 ✭✭✭normanoffside


    How many kids died in Ireland because of Covid?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Well what I bought was less than €5 so not sure if what I bought was not safe. We all know covid likes to infect people spending less than €9.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Your study shows that nothing is harmless to kids.

    After "certain conditions originating in the perinatal period", by far the largest killer of children is accidents.

    So for school going aged kids, Covid is less harmful than getting out of bed in the morning.

    Your battle cry of medical misinformation is ludicrous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,987 ✭✭✭normanoffside




  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is medical misinformation to state that covid is harmless to kids. In the US number 8 for children and number 5 for older adolescents as a leading cause of death.

    Listing the items above it cannot logically refute that.

    Unless all the accidents happened "getting out of bed" your post makes no sense and is itself medical misinformation.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,966 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Do you think the figures in the study you linked show Covid to be sufficiently harmful to children specifically to warrant a sense of alarm in parents, sufficient to demand action and public health measures to protect those children specifically?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,317 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    America has obesity pandemic. Any Irish figures that is actually relevant here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Basic scientific knowledge tells you the next wave of a virus is always weaker yet our response got stronger and stronger. Restrictions were unnecessary after the 1st wave. What we did to most vulnerable in society was inhumane.

    We have to learn from the mistakes. The powers the government got were too much and our fake opposition went missing. I'll never forgive sinn fein for never challenging a single policy during that time.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fully agree. We had lots of data available in 2020 after the first few months. It was obvious who was most at risk and that the illness was very mild overall.

    Yet we chose to fully lockdown and mask up for the first 6 months of 2021 before slowly removing restrictions.

    As more and more vaccines went into arms, astonishingly we hit the pause button on relaxing restrictions and eventually brought back more restrictions with 93% fully vaccinated.


    Any half honest inquiry will have to raise serious questions. Even more so when we have NPHET publically admitting they both used and measured fear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,317 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Undoubtedly keeping the measures in place (and reintroducing them - pubs had to close at 8 pm for a few weeks) was utter madness.

    It was clear then and clear now. The illness was a minor cold for the vast majority of people.

    Hospitals were there to treat sick people. We don't lock down because of this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,036 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Where did you get that the next wave is "always" weaker?

    "...University of Oxford scholars of evidence-based medicine Tom Jefferson and Carl Heneghan have summarized past waves in respiratory virus pandemics over the previous 150 years. For example, the 1889-92 influenza outbreak had three distinct waves, which differed in their virulence. The second wave was much more severe, particularly in younger adults...."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭Economics101


    My Covid app shows no uptick in the National numbers for positive PCR tests, and continuing low numbers for hospitalisations with Covid, The % testing positive is also quite low. Is one hospital very different? Why? Or is it OTT journalism?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Those figures are relevant to Ireland and it is absurd to suggest otherwise. It has no basis in science.

    It is human beings in both countries and the same virus.

    It proves that covid is NOT harmless to children.

    We have many children here vulnerable to covid due to different conditions.

    Therefore, it demonstrates the merit in taking steps to protect them. That it is not 'inhumane'. It demonstrates that such emotional hyperbolic attacks on those who wanted to protect children are completely unjustified and without merit. We can have a rational debate about the balance of protection versus education but we cannot have any such debate when unjustified vitriol is bandied about.

    For posters to then turn around and say the restrictions had no merit, because Ireland had so few deaths in children, misses the elephant in the room. It denies any role to the restrictions in that outcome & in the restrictions ensuring we had capacity available to treat the severe cases.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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