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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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    #15182
    Lil Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296989#Comment_120296989

    Ok then find the section referencing cross community as a requirement in the Windsor Framework document to support your view



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    #15183
    Lil Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296996#Comment_120296996

    Not at all. Please post the details that support your view ie. the section referencing cross community as a requirement in the Windsor Framework document



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    #15184
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭McFly85


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297056#Comment_120297056

    The Framework states that the mechanism is "without prejudice to the status of cross-community voting and safeguards in the 1998 Agreement which apply solely and exclusively to devolved matters".

    It also references the New Decade, New Approach which formed the basis for the restoration of the Stormont Assembly after a three-year suspension in January 2020.

    The Windsor framework is clearly intended to be used in conjunction with current regulations. It’s says nowhere within the framework that the brake mechanism supersedes the GFA or New Decade, New Approach documents.



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    #15185
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,069 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297090#Comment_120297090

    Section 64 mentions the brake being a "cross community safeguard"

    It doesn't matter anyway because the brake has no power. It can't stop anything just suggest the blocking of a law.

    They can also only use the brake if they can prove the new law will have a significant impact but prove to who exactly.



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    #15186
    Jizique
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭Jizique


    British legal expert David Allen Green and his thoughts on the construct

    https://mobile.twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1630505633806950400



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    #15187
    Lil Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297090#Comment_120297090

    “…..the new agreement establishes a powerful new democratic safeguard - a Stormont Brake - rooted in the principles of the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement, where those goods rules applied in Northern Ireland are amended or replaced. Under the Protocol as it stands, those rules are applied automatically under Article 13(3). But the Stormont Brake will change that, giving the institutions, once restored, a genuine and powerful role in the decision on whether or not significant new goods rules impacting on everyday life in Northern Ireland should apply. This is more than simply a say in the rules that are made: the Brake would enable a sovereign UK Government decision to veto the application of a new rule - and the accompanying ECJ interpretation and oversight - to Northern Ireland permanently”



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    #15188
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297090#Comment_120297090

    I dunno. The text of Article 60 appears to give MLAs an alternative way when cross-community support has not been achieved.

    " Whilst this democratic basis is entirely consistent with the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement, the Government recognises that there is an unanswered question about how to provide a say to MLAs in a scenario in which a cross-community consensus has not been achieved."

    So is it saying that where the GFA doesn't have a solution, then this new rules applies?

    And then Article 61, about the Brake, begins with 'To address these key challenges'. So it appears to me that the Brake supercedes cross-community-support.

    *****

    Here's a PDF of the whole thing. But Articles 60 onwards seems the important bit.

    vFINAL- 2023 02 27 - Command Paper 1245 (publishing.service.gov.uk)



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    #15189
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,069 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297110#Comment_120297110

    Well done you quoted something. Care to tell us how you think it says what you think it says.



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    #15190
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭McFly85


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297110#Comment_120297110

    None of that says that once 30 MLAs start the process that it skips over the assembly and goes straight to UK-EU negotiations. It just says that there is a mechanism for the UK to reject EU law in NI with arbitration outside of the ECJ, which is true.



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    #15191
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,311 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297056#Comment_120297056

    Section 62

    When the institutions are restored, the trigger for the Brake will operate on

    the same basis as a separate ‘Petition of Concern’ within the Belfast (Good

    Friday) Agreement, as updated by the New Decade, New Approach

    Agreement in 2020, allowing a concern to be raised based on 30 MLAs from

    two or more parties coming together to sign a petition.


    Petition of concern

    For a petition to be raised successfully, at least 30 of the 90 members must sign the petition. In a cross-community vote, the majority of unionists' and the majority of nationalists' votes are each required to pass a motion put to the assembly.

    Hence yes, DUP and TUV can raise thousands of items but it will not go anywhere without both sides majority voting yes that it's a concern to actually be handled and the break only triggers after the UK government informs the EU about it (which in turn can only happen after the NI assembly has voted yes to the concern and informed the UK government).



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    #15192
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Shelga


    What a colossal waste of time the last 7 years of UK politics has been.



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    #15193
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What happens to the Stormont Brake if the following happens?

    UK and USA agrees a trade deal that allows chlorinated chicken into the UK. The DUP plus another party raises a Petition of Concern that these chicks are not allowed into NI but should be because they are available in Bradford so should be available in Belfast, and since they want access to the chicks in their chippers, because they are cheaper.

    Does The Stormont Assembly have to agree with this petition before it goes any further? Does the UK Gov have to agree with it being a reasonable concern? Does the EU have any part in shooting it down?

    What happens if a supermarket in NI starts selling these chicks in NI?



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    #15194
    Lil Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297130#Comment_120297130

    Not really, if you can’t understand it as per the quote then I won’t bother



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    #15195
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭McFly85


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297189#Comment_120297189

    Stormont Brake here doesn’t apply as it’s nothing to do with the EU, just the UK and US.



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    #15196
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,311 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297189#Comment_120297189

    Well they would be allowed into NI in the first place from my understanding; but assuming not the second part is yes, the Stormont Assemly has to vote yes cross community to inform the UK government about the concern. The UK government then investigates and speaks with both sides and if they feel it's a considerable concern (requirement) as an issue they inform the EU about it (and this is the first point the break actually is applied).



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    #15197
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297218#Comment_120297218

    Chlorinated chicken is banned from the SM, so it does.



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    #15198
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭McFly85


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297229#Comment_120297229

    Sure, but NI is a special case. As long as NI do not intend to sell chlorinated chicken into the EU proper than the EU won’t be involved with it.

    The brake just gives the UK power to challenge new EU law relating to goods that’s significantly different to current laws and provably detrimental to the people of NI.



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    #15199
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,069 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297197#Comment_120297197

    "If you don't know I'm not telling you" christ is it primary school we are in.

    In other words you don't have a clue.



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    #15200
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,069 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297229#Comment_120297229

    The brake is only to stop EU law being enacted in NI. Any new UK law would just apply automatically.

    Chlorinated chickens only become a problem if someone sells some on to the Republic.



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    #15201
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ##Mod Note##


    @Lil Fred - Don't post in this thread again.



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    #15202
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,407 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296547#Comment_120296547

    What facts are these? All I'm seeing is where the EU has conceded over previous agreements. I don't see any new concessions from the UK.

    Perhaps you can point them out?



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    #15203
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,069 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297338#Comment_120297338

    When or where did I ever mention concessions from the UK.

    That's not at all what we were talking about in regards to the lies that quickly banned poster.



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    #15204
    Will_I_Amnt
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Will_I_Amnt


    Still waiting for details on who precisely is allowed in the green lane, whether green lane means absolutely no checks whatsoever, if there are green lane checks, where they occur, who carries them out and where. So if a Tesco lorry is allowed in the green lane for deliveries to Newry Tesco stores, how can it be guaranteed that the same lorry is not delivering to Tesco in Dundalk? Or even an independent butcher who has outlets on both sides of the border. There's nothing to stop him sending "illegal" meats to his RoI outlet for sale there. All seems a bit wishy washy!


    Also a bit wishy washy is the Stormont Brake and how NI's access to the single market will be affected if/when changes in EU goods laws are brought in, Stormont objects and Brussels ignores. Isnt it all ripe up for a whole new smuggling industry in the future?



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    #15205
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297498#Comment_120297498

    No inspections/checks doesnt mean no info whatsoever on what is on the trucks they still need to say i have x of this and y of this. Thats what the real time data is for, if inspectors find UK product x in Irish stores they trace it back to who imported it via the green lane and somebody gets in trouble.



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    #15206
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297524#Comment_120297524

    I assume that regardless of Green lane status there will still be sample checks done to ensure compliance.

    They aren't just going to completely ignore the Green lane traffic.

    Just like you can still get stopped by Customs in the airport from time to time when you use the Blue channel.



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    #15207
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    The Green Lane is designed to reduce paperwork not surveillance.



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    #15208
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297498#Comment_120297498

    I'm sure I read somewhere that the Green Lane would still be subject to occasional customs checks - customs and revenue have the legal right to stop any vehicle and search it (just as they can search the property of any person travelling through a UK or Irish airport). It's not as if the Green Lane gives those travelling through it some sort of free pass, it's just designed to speed up traffic up.



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    #15209
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297498#Comment_120297498

    Green lane will have some checks, but its up to individuals to comply with it.

    It will be enforced the same way all laws are enforced. If they find out that youve broken the law, you get prosecuted. Fear of prosecution will, in turn, make most people comply. If only the Tescos comply for fear of publicity, and the small butcher takes a chance, inspections can focus on the small butcher. Also, these things work on the basis of a high rate of compliance, not perfect detection.

    Trying to find some absolutist position is unworkable. Its like saying that unless there is a speed camera on every single road that speed limits are not enforced. Even under existing arrangements, Im sure there will be some problems. Even now, cigarettes can be smuggled in without duty from France - this doesnt undermine the integrity of the system.



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    #15210
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,190 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297498#Comment_120297498

    The Green Lane is for good not as risk of entering RoI and (as I understand) can only be used by "trusted traders"

    The Red Lane is for everything else. Honestly I'd say 90% of goods will be in the Red Lane.

    Non trusted traders will be in the Red Lane.

    Any company that has a distribution centre that suppliers both North and South will be in the Red Lane.

    Any mixed delivery will be in the Red Lane.

    Anything without the correct paperwork will be in the Red Lane.


    So the Irish Sea border effectively stays, just with a inconvenient "out" to placate the DUP.



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    #15211
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297187#Comment_120297187

    Add expensive on to that too.



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