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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭72sheep


    Pre-2011 was still a FF/FG govmt. Also creating an economic environment whereby people bought homes they could never afford is not exactly the opposite of a housing crisis. Where we are now though is a housing crisis, of such severity that it's a source of shame internationally, and

    - a govmt housing policy optimised for overseas investors with some trimmings for Irish insiders (see all those An Bord Pleanala 'best practices')

    - a govmt immigration policy optimized to attract all and sundry

    - a govmt Ukraine support policy optimized to impress EU/NATO 

    - a govmt communications policy that labels poor people racists (at least they're no longer all dole cheats!)

    - govmt politicians not feeling any need to declare their own property assets

    Of course they are mouthing off about introducing new schemes to accelerate, facilitate, alleviate, etc. but it takes a special kind of naivety to continue believing that Varadkar and O'Gorman are fighting the good fight



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    The figures not changing much between 2011 and 2023 would be largely explained by Ireland still recovering from the recession until about 2015, and corona hitting from 2020-2022. So there were really only 4-5 'normal' years of immigration in that 12 year time span, and 4-5 years when people were actually leaving the country.

    The rapid increases during the Celtic Tiger years are more representative of what we can expect this decade if the border policies remain unchanged.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Pre-2011 was still a FF/FG govmt

    In the 30 years prior to 2011, FG were in power for just over 2 years as part of a rainbow coalition.

    Also our housing crisis is not a "source of shame internationally". No one internationally pays the slightest bit of interest to it as they are too busy with their own problems. It is clearly an issue for Ireland, but the hyperbole, as usual, is off the charts.

    There are myriad problems with housing in Ireland, and the govt have not done a good job. However, even a cursory look at any kind of sufficiently dense planning application will show you that, in fact, building housing is deeply unpopular in Ireland no matter what people say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭72sheep


    The IT is oh so worried that young FF & FG TD's are being scared away from politics (by their FF/FG elders being relentlessly caught out ignoring "best practices"). But don't fret poor Stephen, those youngsters that "feel drawn to public service" will fight like rats to get onboard, LOL!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/17/ambitious-relatively-young-tds-are-heading-for-the-exit-is-public-life-becoming-unbearable/



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    €105k base salary + €50k expenses (which can be used for things like a personal car) + €40k ministerial salary once they're in the job long enough. Plus the fact its a job with a very high social cachet, plus the fact it attracts people who're idealistic or people who're power hungry who aren't necessarily in it for the money.

    Its much harder work than most people think absolutely. But theres never going to be a shortage of candidates given the above.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I can expense travel with my personal car if I have to travel for work. There is nothing unusual about that. My total expenses are probably north of 100k annually.

    The expenses thing drives me mad - crack down hard on expenses scandals and dodgy ones, but TDs absolutely rack up shitloads of legitimate work expenses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The FFG TDs have shown time and time again that they claim every last cent across a broad range of expenses. Dara Murphy (FG) showed how it could be done without even doing his job or attending the Dail. They promised reform there too, yeah right. Bertie is still claiming 70,000 a year on "secretarial assistance" expenses!

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would agree that claiming expenses without even attending the institution is pretty bad...

    I am not against a more robust expenses system. I am irritated by the cheap and easy way that people talk about TDs being on X amount plus expenses as if expenses are not a function of every single job in the private sector.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    TD's expenses are unvouched and are very frequently abused, so the expense allowance acts as effectively part of their salary. They frequently claim travel expenses to attend work on days they haven't even attended work. Its nothing remotely comparable to being reimbursed for mileage driven and studiously accounted for, or having to submit receipts for every meal, in a private sector job.

    https://www.joe.ie/politics/dara-murphy-resigns-seat-dail-eireann-expenses-scandal-688422 - Fine Gael TD Dara Murphy has resigned his seat in Dáil Éireann. The Cork North Central TD had been at the centre of an expenses scandal after it emerged that he had been claiming his full expenses allowance despite being mostly absent from Dáil Éireann over the last two years.

    https://extra.ie/2022/07/31/news/politics/43-tds-claimed-more-than-e50k-each - "43 TDs claimed more than €50k each in unvouched expenses"

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/tds-can-net-full-whack-of-travel-expenses-even-if-they-miss-a-raft-of-actual-dail-sittings-41515135.html - "TDs are able to claim the maximum level of travel and accommodation expenses for attending Leinster House, despite missing a large number of days when the Dáil is actually sitting."

    etc



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Lots of jobs give a per diem rather than having to submit expenses.

    The fact that some people abuse this (and clearly some are caught and face consequences) is not a reason to damn the whole system. Any system will have abuse - catching that is a good thing.

    Given the nature of the job, I equally would not be surprised to learn that many TDs are paying for certain things out of their own pocket. It is a demanding job that at times requires 24/7 presence. Perhaps we would all be better off giving them "corporate" credit cards that they can put all expenses on and deal with it that way but the numbers we are talking about here are not particularly crazy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    If I tried to claim yearly travel expenses of €25k for a 21km commute (like say Katherine Zappone), including expenses for days I didn't actually attend work, I would very quickly not be employed. As would anyone else in the private sector with an expense account. Again, theres absolutely no comparison to private sector expense accounts in the real world with this system.

    Its not "some people" either, the abuse of the expenses system in Leinster House is endemic. There was only one TD out of 160 who claimed expenses of less than 10,000euro in 2021: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-how-much-in-expenses-your-local-td-claimed-in-2021-42086320.html

    Excusing corruption because "the numbers we are talking about here are not particularly crazy" is terrible reasoning. "ah sure its only a few euros here or there" is what got us Charlie Haughey and Bertie Ahern and decades of pervasive political corruption.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    10,00€ is a stupidly low bar to set though. I'm amazed a single TD came below that. The idea that anyone above that is abusing it is farcical.

    They have constituency offices, significant travel expenses, entertainment expenses (which are common among all professions).

    Being a (good) TD is expensive and I'm sure its not uncommon to pay above the expense limit for their actual expenses. Being a bad one is not as expensive, but then it should be up to the electorate to get rid of those people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2



    "The idea that anyone above that is abusing it is farcical" is highly naive given the large number of TD's who've been avarous enough to manage to fall foul of even the current system's very, very limited oversight.

    There is absolutely no justification for having an unvouched expense system to the tunes of tens of thousands of euros, per year, for every TD. If they have valid expenses they would have no problem providing receipts for them.

    Again - try suggesting to a private sector employer that you have €50k of expenses in a calendar year, but you can't provide receipts for any of this, and see how far you'd get. You'd be laughed out of a job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭jmcc




  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Interesting poll.

    A couple of things to note. Green Party with a chance of holding all their seats in Dublin with an 8% share.

    SF doing significantly worse among women - Mairia Cahill's book later this year will add to that problem.

    51% among the 18-24-year olds who tend not to vote means the SF total is exaggerated and is in the nature of a protest vote, so volatile.

    Current government likely to be close to a majority on those figures, maybe need some more secure deals with independents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Michael O'Leary absolutely skewered Eamonn Ryan on Morning Ireland today and he was dead right. He basically said we don't need any more memos or meetings, we need action on the drone impacts to Dublin airport. Worth a listen back.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Michael OLeary, yeah, the common man approach, I wonder which race meeting he's at today?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I never see O'Leary as the common man. I see him as the hard working Executive getting things done and not putting up with excuses. The opposite of the 3 unwise men.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Things are getting desperate all right, when the perpetual complainers have to latch on to Michael O'Leary to support their non-stop rants about the government.

    Thing is, Ryan doesn't care about the airline industry, he would cheer if Ryanair went bust, as carbon emissions would go down. O'Leary is no more than an irritating fly to him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Michael O'Leary has plenty of glaring problems as a person but theres not much point attacking the man not the ball here - hes completely right in this case. This is the 6th week of drone attacks on Dublin airport and the government has done nothing to stop them yet, its a farce.

    Edit, to give some more detail to his comments:

    "Mr O'Leary said 20,000 passengers were affected by last night's disruption.

    He accused Mr Ryan of sitting on his hands and said having more meetings and producing memos is not a solution. It is time for the minister to take action or resign, he said.

    "What we need today is not legislation, we need the minister to authorise Dublin Airport to spend the €100,000, buy the electronic equipment which will disable these drones when they are identified and bring them down," Mr O'Leary said.

    "We need that done today. We don't need a memo to Cabinet next Tuesday. What happens if the airport is shut again Saturday or Sunday?"

    Mr O'Leary said he understands Dublin Airport has sought permission from the Department of Transport to acquire anti-drone technology, but cannot get permission.

    He said there is no reason why Ireland's main airport should not have this technology in place, and he called on Mr Ryan to outline his action on it by lunchtime.

    Aer Lingus has also called for urgent action and said there needs to be a "step change in urgency ... from the key stakeholders charged with managing this critical issue". In a statement, the airline said the level of disruption is "concerning and unacceptable."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    That's a very silly post. Read it back to yourself.

    So it's fine that our main airport is continually disrupted while Ryan prepares a memo?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ryan doesn't care if our main airport is shut, carbon emissions go down. So he is in no rush.

    That your holiday to Spain is disrupted won't bother him either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Have you been drinking? He is the transport minister. Your beloved Fine Gael politicians have a less idiotic view.

    Time to ‘ground’ illegal drone operators following three days of disruption at Dublin Airport – Doherty - Fine Gael

    'Take action or resign' — Michael O'Leary vents fury over drone disruption at Dublin Airport (irishexaminer.com)

    Fine Gael senator and former Social Protection Minister Regina Doherty has also criticised the response.

    Ms Doherty, a Fine Gael representative for Fingal, said: “Last night, flights were grounded at Dublin Airport for the sixth time in eight weeks after yet another drone operator threatened our airspace and public safety.

    “My question is: what have Minister Ryan and the Daa done about the need to take down drones, and drone operators, over the last few years?

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Aer Lingus slams 'unacceptable' disruptions caused by drone activity at Dublin Airport - Irish Mirror Online

    Aer Lingus has hit out at the lack of action to ensure illegal drone activity near Dublin Airport stops and says it is "unacceptable" as the airline calls for laws to be pushed through "as a matter of urgency".

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Sure maybe it’s a Green Party supporting nutter launching these attacks on the airport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I am not a member of Fine Gael, as you well know, so less of the flaming and trolling in that regard.

    Reducing air traffic is one of the Green's goals, so why would Ryan be in a hurry to fix this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Ah stop. I am not engaging in your silly argument. Ryan will do what he's told soon enough.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    €4 billion transferred to the NPRF, some excellent and prudent management of the public finances.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Yeah I'm sure the 4000 homeless Irish children in the country tonight will be delighted to hear the government is pumping up a savings account instead of building houses. Very prudent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I was transferred to Belfast myself recently on my way back to the continent, not a good situation I'd agree. But the DAA is responsible for the day to day running of the airport with a budget so I'd say if it was as simple as 100000 spend it would be done without any need for ministerial intervention.

    Michael is as usual just venting his spleen and every govt naysayers is just latching on to its contents to help spread it around.



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