Sale Agreed, Refusing to provide updated Certificate of Compliance

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 11:02am #1

We are Sale Agreed since early January, it’s an old 40s house that was extensively extended and renovated in the 1970’s but a previous owner. When the current owner bought the property he got a Cert of Planning Compliance that outlined that the house was largely in compliance with the planning permission.

We went Sale Agreed and then arranged our Pre Purchase Survey as our solicitor said to hold off until we had the contact docs. The Surveyor has raised some planning irregularities with the house. Basically it was built in the 40s (exempt development by the council) and a comprehensive extension built in the early 70s, by a previous owner. The extension drawings, as granted planning permission, had a dining room (pitched roof extension) and flat roof garage beside it, but that whole section is now a pitched roof and is a larger room. There is also a porch at the rear of the house, which isn’t on the drawings. There are also sheds not on the drawings. And some of the windows/doors are not where they are shown.

Now the drawing are from the early 70s is incredibly basic, hand drawn by the applicant himself (not the current owner).

The Sellers Solicitor included with the contract a copy of the planning permission for the extension, and also a Letter from an architect in the mid 80s (when the current owner purchased the house) certifying that it was largely compliant.

Surveyor is not satisfied with this as it doesn’t expressly include the porch and sheds, which is arguing are at the front of the house as they correspond to the front elevation as writing on the drawings, even through this is actually the side of the house. He is advising that retention is likely needed, and at the least an update Certificate of Planning Compliance.

The house has been for sale for over a year, the previous buyers pulled out and I am starting to wonder if this is why. Surely if the seller knew this would be an issue he would have gone and got it sorted at this stage?

The Sellers Solicitor, who I have to say is incredibly hard to deal with, it point blank refusing the provide a new Cert of Compliance, no discussion. Our solicitor is advising us that she will have to inform the bank, and likely if the title is qualified then the bank may not lend. Anyhow we want to be right if we ever decide to extend ourselves in the future.

here are no other houses for sale in the area, we do really want to buy this house for a large number of reason, but we just don’t know what to do now. Why would their solicitor be refusing the provide this cert? Is there something else we are missing?

This has been rumbling on for a month now and there seems to be no solution in sight.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? Any advice is very welcome at this stage.

Claw Hammer · 02-03-2023 12:45pm

The same solicitor may have bought the house for the seller originally and getting an updated sert might mean explaining that they did not do the job properly in the first place. Check Googvle Maps and the Ordinance survey and find out how long the sheds porch etc have been there.

Do the sheds qualify under the exempt developments rules?

How big is the cumulative area of the extensions?

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304995#Comment_120304995

It is the same solicitor alright and by all accounts he is old school and hard to deal with overall.

The sheds are 33 sq m, the problem is that as per the planning drawings they are technically at the front of the house so would need planning. They are actually at the side and I feel an engineer could make this point.

The porch is the same, its under the size that is exempt, but we are being told that as its at the front it technically needs planning.

The total extension brought to house to c. 150 sq m, the originally house was only a two room cottage. It does have full planning which is good. Its just these discrepancies with the drawings.

It is so frustrating that they wont just sort this issue. I feel that a building surveyor may provide a Cert of Compliance if they examine the drawings, it is substantially in compliance. Or else they will be told it needs retention, which I assume they do not want to do.

The house is for sale for over a year, they had one offer last year that feel through, so I just can not for the life of me understand why they dont want to sort this issue out.

Like they knew we would do our own due diligence and get a pre-purchase survey done. Like if they knew this was likely to come up why hasnt it been sorted out before now.

We are so frustrated, if there was any other house we could buy in the area we would be looking into by now, but unfortunately there isnt.

spaceHopper · 02-03-2023 3:11pm

Can your surveyor tell how long they are there, can you talk to the council to see if there is likely to be problem?

Why are they selling? Could it be a divorce and one wants to sell the other doesn't and they are using stuff like this it frustrate the sale

gipi · 02-03-2023 3:21pm

If the sheds are over 25 sq m then they're likely to need planning regardless of their location.

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305663#Comment_120305663

Our surveyor is adamant they were build since the current owner purchased the house. The Seller on the other hand is swearing blind that he didnt build them and they were there since he bought. They are not on the planning drawings. I can see them on the OS map of 1995. He purchased in 1986.

Selling as current owner is living abroad with his new wife and they are going to permanently settle there. Having spoken to him it does seem genuine.

I did wonder was it something to do with his previous marriage, and possibly his ex partner has a stake in the house. I really dont know, it is incredibly frustrating!

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305720#Comment_120305720

That is what I thought. Our surveyor has the size on his report of 33 sq m, so there is no getting around it.

They are two small sheds, then a large open shed for turf, that is fully open at one side and a galvanise roof.

chops018 · 02-03-2023 3:31pm

They are probably selling the house "as is" and won't provide anything more.

Would it be an option (not ideal) to engage your own engineer/architect/surveyor to review the planning position and indeed the buildings and get your own certificate that would satisfy the bank?

Otherwise, as your own solicitor mentioned it's a case of them setting out the position to the bank and get the title qualified.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2023 3:32pm

Our surveyor is adamant they were build since the current owner purchased the house. The Seller on the other hand is swearing blind that he didnt build them and they were there since he bought. They are not on the planning drawings. I can see them on the OS map of 1995. He purchased in 1986.

Any idea who the estate agent was back then and would they have an archived copy of the sales brochure (with photos)?

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305784#Comment_120305784

I did think that, Im just not sure a surveyor will be willing to actually certify it as technically it isnt in compliance with the original planning permission. Between the additional porch, sheds and section that now has a pitched roof, there are a few items that are not as per planning. Not sure someone will want to put their name to that! Also it pains me to actually have to do that it is my opinion it is up to the seller to provide this. His solicitor has been beyond hard to deal with, and has annoyed our solicitor.

It all feels a bit needless to be honest. It is such a pity as we had great relationship with both the EA and Seller up to this point. Maybe we are just naive!

Mimojo · 02-03-2023 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305787#Comment_120305787

Unfortunately we dont, and as its almost 40 years the chances of them having a hard copy is slim I feel. A time before the internet unfortunately!

chops018 · 02-03-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305900#Comment_120305900

Well, there is your answer, unfortunately. It's not in compliance with planning etc. They can't give you documents they don't have.

Seems only thing to do now is to get your own Solicitor to qualify title with your lender.

I agree by the way, it should be up to the seller to provide all documents required for the sale. But unfortunately, it's very much a private treaty sale and caveat emptor applies it's a case of I'm selling this property, here's the documents showing I'm the owner, and here's all associated documents I have. Your solicitor will review and tell you the risks and it's usually a take it or leave it type thing. With a lender involved it's a bit more difficult as you've to let them know as your solicitor is certifying title to the lender so if they have to realise the security (the property) then they don't want there to be these types of issues showing up. If you were as cash buyer you could proceed but even at that your solicitor would still need to make you aware of the issues and risks and advise you that if you go to sell these might crop up again.

Hopefully it goes well anyway. As others have said, potentially retention permission might be able to be obtained.

Mimojo · 03-03-2023 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306019#Comment_120306019

Thank you. Indeed Retention might be an option alright, just not sure the Seller would be willing to go down that route, but then again he doesnt have any other offers so he may have no choice.

It is just so frustrating, why can sellers just have their ducks in a row when putting a property up for sale. We were so excited to be Sale Agreed, but it seems we were a bit ahead of ourselves.

Would the lender still lend with a qualification on title? I take it they assess on a case by case basis?

brokenbad · 03-03-2023 10:29am

You are "Sale Agreed" only - unless you have contracts signed, you can still walk away from the sale if you are not comfortable with the planning documentation issues.

Calahonda52 · 03-03-2023 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305720#Comment_120305720

My understanding is that once you go beyond one shed <25, any others will require planning, regardless of size.

Claw Hammer · 03-03-2023 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308434#Comment_120308434

It is cumulative.

From the Regulations.

The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres."

Calahonda52 · 03-03-2023 12:46pm

Thanks, my recall lion is from 1987!

John_Rambo · 03-03-2023 10:20pm

This happened to us. Seller was an "engineer" and had build an extension and dodgy velux balcony type thing that looked over the neighbours garden. He insisted on being there when we viewed the house, followed us around with his commentary. He also insisted to be present when the surveyor (architect) was surveying the house had an answer for everything, he even walked outside to join the conversation our surveyor was having with us!! Our solicitor wouldn't go further because of PP issues and questionable foundation & building practises so we pulled out.

The guy called to our house with a nasty letter for us, but he got caught hand delivering it by my good self and a couple of neighbours. Silly thing to do on Sheriff street. I called up to his solicitor to see if they gave him our address. Solicitor was absolutely mortified and this was the first time I've ever seen a solicitor lost for words.

Edit... hope this works out for you and you get a good result.

L1011 · 03-03-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305907#Comment_120305907

Finding out the agent may be possible via newspaper archives - but I'd agree that they are unlikely to have much if any records available - if they even still exist.

That said, the two estate agents in my area in 1986 are both still trading!

spaceHopper · 06-03-2023 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120305772#Comment_120305772

Is there not a seven year rule where you can't be made tear it down if nobody object for 7 years. It's a hassle but if you really like the house I'd find a way to overcome it. Could you ask any of the neighbours when it was build or find the old owner or their family. Could you get an architect to give you an opinion and charger it to owner.

Donald Trump · 06-03-2023 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320060#Comment_120320060

Enforcement limitation is 7 years but that does not mean it is now in compliance. Bringing it into compliance could be a precondition for any future planning application.

Claw Hammer · 07-03-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120322748#Comment_120322748

there are other problems as well. There will be no compensation if there is compulsory purchase. No exempt development such as maintenaqnce can be carried out on such a structure.

Mimojo · 09-03-2023 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308387#Comment_120308387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308434#Comment_120308434

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308742#Comment_120308742

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120311199#Comment_120311199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320060#Comment_120320060

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325792#Comment_120325792

Thanks all for the helpful feedback.

The EA got in touch last week and said they had arranged for an engineer to assess the house and the planning docs. They have since sent an updated Certificate of Compliance that states that the house extensions and septic tank are in substantial compliance with the planning permission. They have noted that the garage, that was converted into a room is exempted development. They also note that as the extension was constructed 45 years ago that PA cannot issue enforcement on this basis. He has not expressly mentioned the sheds, just "the dwelling house extensions and septic tank".

We have sent on to our solicitor for review, along with copy of PII.

For us we are happy that we have this updated certificate and I hope it will be enough to progress with, but it is worrying that the shed are not mentioned, I feel that our solicitor will raise this

Mimojo · 09-03-2023 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120311111#Comment_120311111

God that is unreal, was he just hoping that by being involved in everything that he could convince everyone the works were ok? Shocking then with the nasty letter, what a guy like, nooone was going to buy that house with those kind of issues outstanding, whether he was stuck in everything or not!

Hopefully ye had a good outcome in the next house ye found!

John_Rambo · 09-03-2023 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334329#Comment_120334329

Well the sale fell though and he missed out on the house he was after, that's why he was annoyed, but it was 100% his own fault, his shoddy workmanship, corner cutting and dodging PP came home to roost. His actions during the viewings actually raised suspicions causing the architect to look further in to things & finding more stuff that I didn't mention before. If he'd kept his big mouth shut and left the house to ourselves there's a chance he would have got away with it. He had his entry level engineering certificates framed on the wall in his front room, that says it all....

Regarding us, prices dropped, his house went back up for sale and we got a better house in the same area with bigger gardens and more room for fun things. The way our family life evolved it would have meant another move for us that we didn't have two make.

I guess the saying "these things happen for a reason" makes sense in this case, hopefully it does for you too.

spaceHopper · 09-03-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334314#Comment_120334314

If they are small block built sheds would you be ok with buying the house and knocking them? If so buy the house and enjoy. If they are timber, forget about them and buy the house

Claw Hammer · 09-03-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335618#Comment_120335618

You don't buy a house. What you buy is land with a house on it or take an assignment of land with a house on it. Once bought the owner is responsible for everything on the land. The o/p has 2 issues.

Can he get a lender to given him a mortgage with non complying development on the land.

If he can, he is going to have skeptical buyers when he in turn wants to sell. Knocking a shed may be no big deal but there will be costs. His other option is to apply for retention for everything and comply with anyu conditions imposed.

The other option is to leave well enough alone and hope he finds someone like himself to buy it.

Mimojo · 13-03-2023 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335618#Comment_120335618

Yes just small block built sheds, would be easily removed I figure

Mimojo · 13-03-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335885#Comment_120335885

I guess for us we are willing to buy, as long as the solicitor gives the go ahead and doesnt say she has to quality title. She still hasnt confirmed, its been over 2 weeks now, the last 2 months have been eating up on this issue.

There are literally NO other houses in the area to buy, we feel very stuck. We really like this house, and it is a long term investment for years to come, we dont see ourselves have to sell again for a very long time.

Sale Agreed, Refusing to provide updated Certificate of Compliance

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