Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

13839404244

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Deary me, what are the FBI going to do with all their sudden credibility in the conspiracy community..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't need to define something to discuss it.

    You're looking for a finite definition of something so you can shut down discussion.

    But a finite definition isn't possible because we don't know the source of this virus. Scientists do not agree it can't have come from a lab only its very unlikely. But they can't find any evidence of the other scenerio's that it occurred in nature either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And I told you, I'd answer if you promised that you would stop dodging mine. It's clear that you aren't able to do that as you want to dodge questions when they become too difficult for you.

    But still here is your answer:

    The lab leak theory is the notion that the virus leaked from a lab.


    Now, since you haven't answered my questions and have been doing everything to avoid answering them, you are admitting you can't answer them as per your previous post.

    You accept and agree that conspiracy theorists where claiming a great many things beyond the idea of a lab leak. You also agree that those theories are all obviously false and should be dismissed as conspiracy theories.

    If this isn't what you accept or agree to, then by all means, answer my questions. If you can't answer them, then don't.


    Why do you spend so much time of stuff you don't want to answer questions about?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,142 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Nope, it is you that is attempting to rewrite your position to have been "it was an accident". That has never been the position by those pushing conspiracy theories.


    If you want a credible conspiracy theory then something like "they tried to cover up a mistake they made" would have been a good start, but until the last week that isn't what any conspiracy theorists have been claiming. Now they are changing their positions to try and make out they were saying something credible from the start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    It's very strange that they aren't part of a conspiracy. Why aren't they? Why did they suddenly change sides? Are they not part of other conspiracies now?

    No answers will be forthcoming because the conspiracy theory is not credible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    You won’t define what the lab leak theory is. I am not trying to shut down the discussion.

    To claim that one cannot define what the lab leak theory is because we don’t know the source of the virus is disingenuous. If we knew the source of the virus there wouldn’t be competing theories as to the source of the virus.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses


    https://www.cato.org/commentary/what-happens-coronavirus-wuhan-lab-leak-thesis-true

    Until a few weeks ago, allegations that the virus may have originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology rather than in nature were widely dismissed as an unfounded conspiracy theory. 


    “It’s a skip in logic to say it’s a bioweapon that the Chinese developed and intentionally deployed, or even unintentionally deployed,” Narang said.

    No distinctions are made

    Another article combining both theories


    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/23/841729646/virus-researchers-cast-doubt-on-theory-of-coronavirus-lab-accident

    But after corresponding with 10 leading scientists who collect samples of viruses from animals in the wild, study virus genomes and understand how lab accidents can happen, NPR found that an accidental release would have required a remarkable series of coincidences and deviations from well-established experimental protocols.


    "All of the evidence points to this not being a laboratory accident," says Jonna Mazet, a professor of epidemiology at the University of California, Davis and director of a global project to watch for emerging viruses called PREDICT."

    Above was among other publications, used to ridicule the theory It came from a lab.


    8. Coronavirus was leaked from a high security lab in Wuhan and China is trying to cover it up

    FALSE. About as likely as the Salisbury novichok attack of last year emanating from our own high security laboratory at Porton Down which is not more than a stone's throw from the historic city. In short it’s total nonsense, up there with wacko theories about 9/11, the Holocaust and the death of JFK. The coronavirus is just another zoonotic infection - a virus that jumped from animals to humans. The Spanish flu, HIV and Ebola are others.

    Another fine example


    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/05/the-non-paranoid-persons-guide-to-viruses-escaping-from-labs/

    "Ebright’s focus on lab escapes has made him something of a pariah, especially among experts who don’t like to rile the public."

    There are Many .. many more examples of how the thories got bundled up in single articles



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You post a comprehensive list of "all" lab theories then. Including the ones you've not heard off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Why are people so reluctant to define what they mean by lab leak theory when they are discussing lab leak theory?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Actually it was during the whole thing that I did stumble on a credible conspiracy theory. But it's one that conspiracy theorists never once picked up on because it wasn't very exciting.

    There was a lot of talk about "gain of function" testing. But in the conspiracy world this was more what was used to create the virus for the purpose of depopulation or vaccines. At the time US officials, Fauci included was stating that the US was not funding such research.

    It's entirely possible that they were funding such research either knowingly or unknowingly, and the denial of it was made in ignorance or in full knowledge. It's plausible that there was some covering up, spin or reluctance to investigate to avoid this being exposed.


    But since this doesn't result in sexy, world ending theories, it's not very interesting to theorists.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The articles you post say it unlikely not impossible like you subsequently claim.

    Me saying that, doesn't mean I believe either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I told you why. It's because you ignore any replies or questions you find too difficult to address and that made it clear it wasn't worth answering your question.

    I also did define it knowing full well you would not be engaging in discussion in good faith and would continue to avoid questions and points.

    And shock, you are again ignoring that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I'll take that as no. You won't post a definitive list of theories either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses


    Sorry your statement regarding the FBI is false

    It states  “the FBI has for quite some time now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident in Wuhan.”

    Why are you misrepresenting what was actually said ?


    The FBI reached the same conclusion as some conspiracy theorists... Isnt that the kind of source you guys are always looking for regarding a CT ?

    You cannot have it both ways by asking for credible conspiracy theories and then moaning like a petulant child when presented by some potential credible sources



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,274 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    ..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But it didn't reach the same conclusions as conspiracy theorists.

    As the vast majority of conspiracy theorists weren't suggesting that the virus was accidentally released.

    Again, you are trying to rewrite what was being claimed because you are editing out what conspiracy theorists actually did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    What the FBI said falls a long way short of most conspiracies.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses


    You are contradicting yourself

    You go from an absolute conclusion to a vast majority.

    Conspiracy theorists claimed the virus came from a lab in Wuhan. some claimed released accidentally, some claimed it was a bio weapon, others claimed it was natural but released on purpose ...etc etc examples of this are in the articles posted in the reply to Robinph

    With the FBI and ministry of energy in the US stating it was likely it came from the Lab in Wuhan, some of the CT cohort was right. Don't loose any sleep over it, You cannot be right all the time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses


    That leaves you with at least a few theories who were/are credible .....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You seem obsessed with right or wrong, black or white.

    That there are elements in common doesn't validate either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭weisses


    I suggest you start working on your comprehension and discussion skills first and worry about my obsessions later



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You're going the route of infinite monkeys.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Finally!

    The “lab leak theory” was dismissed and censored as a conspiracy theory when speculation began as to the origin of Covid 19.

    There were many theories that were not credible that were all labelled as the “lab leak theory” to discredit the notion that the pandemic emerged from a lab.

    The theory that Covid 19 was a result of a naturally occurring virus that was manipulated in a lab and then escaped is a theory that is possible in my opinion.

    I don’t believe that the virus was created as a weapon. I don’t believe it was deliberately leaked but the vast majority of people have never believed either of these positions.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I disagree that it was dismissed and censored by all.

    The rest of it I have no argument with. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But it's possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    The main theories as to the origin of Covid were:

    It emerged from the wet market in Wuhan.

    It emerged from a leak at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    It originated on frozen food imported to China.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    This is not the case. The “lab leak theory” as you yourself have defined it

    ”The lab leak theory is the notion that the virus leaked from a lab.”

    was dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Where did I say anything about an absolute conclusion?

    So why didn't the FBI reach the same conclusions about the virus as the conspiracy theorists who claimed it was released on purpose etc?

    Can we dismiss those theories as false?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. You seem very upset when people don't answer your questions, yet continue to do that when it suits you. Very strange.


    But the "Lab leak theory" was not dismissed or censored. It certainly wasn't because of a conspiracy was trying to censor it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But when you are asked for examples of this, you dodge. Or present things that don't support what you claim, then you start dodging.

    When you are asked why this occurred, you dodge.

    When you are asked to explain why the FBI wasn't dismissed or censored, you dodge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Main theories (debatable) is not a complete list....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,668 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The post below was only a few days. You were asked for proof of these claims and were completely unable to do so. The linked articles actually contradicted your claims.

    You are being completely disingenuous and your claims have no credibility. Your position shifts from post to post in an entirely self serving manner. So round and round the thread goes as you make a claim, you are challenged on it and unable to support it. You shift the goalposts then eventually rehash the same claim as if nothing happened.

    Heres the evidence from last time round.

    Definitive positive proof of your deliberate misrepresentation:


    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think it's more arguing for arguing sake.

    The issue with that it details any meaningful discussion on the subject. So it makes getting involved in these threads pointless. It's up to the mods to allow it though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    Has no one ever conspired?

    Has no one ever theorised?

    Regarding the sale of nicotine, many (quite rightly) theorised that the manufacturers and safety bodies were conspiring to maintain a safe status for a damaging product.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    My favorite one is they switched the titanic for the sister ship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You have things very upsidedown

    The conspiracy theory community didn't uncover anything, they just pointed at Covid from day one and said inside job, like they do to everything. Saying it was man-made. The thread on this forum is literally titled "Covid-19 likely to be man made".

    The FBI haven't stated that it was man-made. They have investigated and eventually, over time, they have concluded that they believe it was a lab leak incident. Which was never ruled out. I said that lab leak was possible multiple times.

    Keep in mind FBI have this theory at "most likely", the dept of energy have it at "low confidence", and there's a big portion of the scientific and expert community who believe it was from the wet market, and have produced peer reviewed papers supporting that. So there's no consensus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Conspiracies and collusion happen all the time. Simply open a newspaper.

    The issue is that there's a conspiracy community who repeatedly claim that events are all sorts of fantastic conspiracies. The spam effect.

    Once in a blue moon the two vaguely cross paths. And the conspiracy theorists then claim "victory" for something they never uncovered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    It reminds me of how in his trials, Alex Jones constantly claimed he was right about WMDs and Jesse Smollet. Which on the face of it would seem to be true.

    But of course that would require you ignore all of the things he also claimed were faked and also the reasons he believed these things were faked.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Not only was the lab leak theory suppressed and censored, some powerful interests continue to seek to suppress its discussion.



    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Your article refers to:

    State-owned Global Times warned Musk on Tuesday not to “bite the hand that feeds you,” according to a translation of a Mandarin idiom by CNBC reporter Eunice Yoon, who first spotted the post on WeChat.

    So someone from a Chinese media outlet told Musk not to tweet stuff on the Chinese version of twitter.

    On top of this not being very secret or conspiratorial, did it even work? Did Musk stop tweeting stuff about covid?

    Not a very good example to supports your argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Why do you think lab leak censorship has to be very secret or “conspiratorial”?

    It was policy, not secret.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    It is not a conspiracy theory to suggest SARS2 is a naturally occuring virus that could have leaked from a lab, this has happened numerous times in history in multiple countries. There were at least four leaks of the SARS1 virus in 2002/03 from labs that were studying the virus.

    What is now incresingly accepted as a credible conspirany theory is that SARS2 may have started out as a naturally occuring virus, but gained its somewhat unique properties (furin cleavage site in it's spike protein) via gain of function experiments in a lab, most likely in Wuhan. The evidence for this may be circumstantial but it is fairly complelling. It is not just possible that this type of research work was going on, it is well documented in published research from both the US and China.

    Suggestions that SARS2 was a chimeric virus that leaked from a research lab were absolutely dismissed and ridiculed from early 2020 onwards, to suggest otherwise is simply rewriting history. Fauci's denial that the US governmrnt funded gain of function research at the WIV is derisorary given published research that describes such work and grant proposals from 2018 outlining future studies.

    So what has changed recently that now both the FBI (they may have believed from some time, but they are only now making it public) and more importantly the DOE have stated the virus likely leaked from a lab? It is likely they have uncovered some evidence, beyond what is in the public domain. What we do know is that there was a proposal in 2018 from EcoHealth (US non profit who were funding coronavirus research in Wuhan using NIH funds) to insert furin cleavage sites into bat coronaviruses to study whether that made them more infectious to humans. This proposal was rejected by the US gvoernment, but there is a lingering susoecios that the research could have been done at the WIV.

    The US government is the only likely means of getting to the truth, although this would involve an admission of shared responsibility. We will obviosuly never get useful evidence from China, as the CCP would never admit to anything that would be embarrasing to them.

    My best guess is that the DOE have access to the WIV database which was taken offline in late 2019, and have more knowledge on what experiments were done than is in the public domain. As to the timing of the DOE and FBI announcements, more than likely this is simply getting ahead of the story before congressional hearings begin.

    https://oversight.house.gov/release/wenstrup-comer-launch-first-select-subcommittee-investigation-into-covid-origins-and-u-s-taxpayer-dollars-funneled-to-the-wuhan-lab%ef%bf%bc/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,842 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Because that's the usual excuse for why conspiracy theorists aren't able to provide evidence for their claims.

    If it was policy then, post the policy from the groups you believe were involved. Post the statements from the people who engaged in this "censorship" that say (not your personal misrepresentations) that they are censoring it.

    I suspect that like with previous difficult points (including the one in the post you quote) you will ignore this and attempt to deflect by demanding I answer some new tangent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Some censorship since it was widely discussed and everyone was talking about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    Facebook and Twitter censured posts from February to May 2021 that suggested Covid ws "man made" or "manufactured". As far as I can tell they reversed the decision due to an evolving understanding of what "man made" meant and didn't necessarily mean made from scratch or made for weapons purposes. I am not aware of any scientist who has proposed that the virus was built from scratch or for weapons use, but there are plenty scientists who have proposed it could well be the result of gain of function work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,668 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is another blatant misrepresentation of the article's contents.

    On Sunday, however, Musk apparently crossed the line when he amplified tweets drawing attention to allegations the U.S. government altered a coronavirus found in bats at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, creating COVID-19 in the process. 

    How does this prove people were labelled a conspiracy theorist for raising possibility of an accidental lab leak of a naturally originated virus?

    It doesn't.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    In conspiracy land, accidental lab leak = man-made bioweapon and everything in between



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    What?

    Does this in your mind somehow contradict the notion that Covid 19 leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



Advertisement