Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

Options
1363739414263

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭rock22


    What is wrong with having signs in both languages , as we do here in Ireland, In parts of Canada, in many parts of germany?



  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭Dslatt




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Something something our wee country, Ulster-Scots etc. etc.

    The reason we all know is: because the DUP and that adjacent strata of Unionism hate all things "Irish", 'cos it's a little bit too Shinner for their blood.

    And before it's said otherwise, there's plenty of room for all cultures, including Ulster-Scots, among the tapestry of Irish identity; there are burgeoning new identities surrounding our 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants merging African, Asian heritage into Irishness - why not Ulster-Scots?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It’s interesting that you are already (rightly) thinking of merging the new arrivals from Africa etc, but only now have a light coming on about respecting those that have been here for many generations - illuminating, to say the least



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’d prefer you didn’t willfully misrepresent my post



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The insistence that Ulster Scots is anything like a language as rich and diverse as Irish is a bit like their strategy in everything else. Reactionary and ill thought out.

    Ulster Scots was practically unheard of until 1998 and was only brought up because Irish language rights were being discussed.

    Unionism probably thought that Irish people would object to giving Ulster Scots minority rights but they didn't, they actually agreed that it should be assisted.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    As always, you miss the point. Reciprocation would go a long way, when your representatives continue to present the North as a retrograde province on the island. Starting with its dogged refusal to acknowledge or support the historical language of the island. We all know why, it'd save a lot of ink and bandwidth if that rump simply admitted it.

    Like it or not, the predominant culture on this island predates your own, while yours has already found itself outpaced and less relevant than those who arrived on our shores a mere 30 odd years ago: African cultures (by way of example) and peoples have shown far more willingness, and enthusiasm, to merge Irishness with Nigerian values and cultural output into something interesting and dynamic. The music scene is a particularly good example of that. God knows Ireland has issues with race and racism - but IMO we trend in a positive direction, the New Irish creating new identities.

    Whither that melting-pot mentality in those you claim not to support, yet vote for? Indeed we know exactly where the DUP stand when it comes to social and cultural liberalism. Starting with, support for The Irish Language as a means of outreach towards the other side of the fence who don't share their specific sense of cultural primacy.

    We can all see, just wish, as I said, more honesty was applied



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    The problem is what SF & IRA have done to irish.

    Here's a republican explaining the problem. You can ignore it if you wish

    Manchán Magan is the great grandnephew of Mícheál Seosamh Ó Rathaille, known as 'The O'Rahilly', who fought and died in the 1916 Easter Rising."For my granny, the language was a cultural nugget but it was also this weapon of war against the British" he says.Despite his republican heritage, Mr Magan says he feels that the language has been "used as a political weapon"."Sinn Fein started to use it, not just to create pride and identity and a sense of an 'esprit de corps' in their people, but as almost a weapon or a signifier of difference from the unionist community and that was a tragedy," he says.

    I don't think this is insurmountable, but will require grace from both sides. Anyone who truly loves irish, both recognises and regrets the above



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    well there we go.

    ...and what do you mean by 'a more diverse language'?

    as for richness - I am unaware of any Irish, other than names of places etc, that is used on a daily basis, yet our speech in OWC is peppered continually with ulster scots words used as rich descriptors.

    But I am not going down the route of putting one against the other. They are both rich, but personally i think, if you enjoy either, then speak them and study them, if not, so be it - lets not be pumping our taxes into such

    ....As for richness, I just asked ChatGPT to translate that last sentence into ulster-scots and this was its reply (sounds rich to me - too rich for ChatGPT to get it ai brain around)

    "please note that Ulster Scots is a complex and diverse language that has many variations and dialects. A dictionary may not capture all the nuances and subtleties of the language. Therefore, you may need to consult other sources or native speakers to verify your translation."



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That's exactly the strategic blunder Unionism made and you cannot see it. They 'pitted' Ulster Scots, which is little more than a dialect, against a centuries old language rich in poetry and literature and vocabulary.

    It was specifically 'pitted' against Irish, hoping for a negative reaction which it never got. Now the comparison is there Ulster Scots fails in every part, and Unionism knows it.

    It was a miserable, no surrender, anti Irish kneejerk reaction best exemplified by that guy having a conniption about Irish on a manhole cover and blaming their bigotry on the Shinners, as usual. You will find plenty in the south like Manchán, who will do the same, rather than lay the blame where it belongs.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ….and to finish my above post, ‘many of those who do not truly love irish, neither recognise nor regret the above’

    if the hat fits…..

    Post edited by downcow on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    A direct quote from your post cannot wilfully misrepresent that post particularly as it backs up my own assertion for the reason that we don't have Stormont up and running.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭rock22


    Are you saying that you would welcome the use of Irish , but you regret the political use of the language by SF and IRA?

    If so, then the best way of demonstrating that is to promote dual signage throughout NI and that way no local road would be identified as being nationalist or unionist. Which is what is done all round the world without such rancour from one community. It you want to read the English sign then do so, if you , want to read the Irish sign you can also do so. The present of the other words do not in any way limit your use of your preferred language.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That approach is very much in line with the GFA.

    If you want to feel British, look East, if you want to feel Irish, look South. If you want to read signs in English, then do so. If you want to read signs in Irish, then do so.

    Who could be offended by either approach, except those that demand to be offended.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Unionists are right to cast a cold eye over the Irish language lobby. In my own lifetime in the Republic, I've seen Irish go from mere tokenism "A chara...... is mise le meas" to where the language lobby have now legislatively woven Irish into all manner of daily public life. Instead of working at having citizens choose to learn & speak out of a love for it, they've gone the constitutional and legislative route to ram it into peoples lives. Gaelgeoir fanatics.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Dual language signage is hardly "ramming" though. Sure it gets a little fussy when (say) the realtime digital bus arrivals had to be quickly translated to Irish back in the day... but it's part of the law, and nothing more than a cute flourish of the historical language of the state.

    How Irish is taught is a broader subject, but road-signs are harmless. The sudden discovery of Ulster-Scots was nothing but convenient whataboutery to stall any encroaching Tadhg'ification of the North.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    What difference does it make if Irish is made more visible, and features more in daily life?

    If you do not understand it, then so what?

    I am sure you find many aspects of modern life are worthy of ignoring completely without consequence. If you have no interest in soccer, then you ignore the antics of the players in the Premier League. Likewise, many politicians are only worthy of total absence from one's consciousness.

    Why get het up about something that does not matter to you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I suggest you read up the Official Languages Act 2003, an act that is the classic sheep in wolf's clothing with many ramifications. It's twenty years on the go now and it has taken time for it's full legislative muscle to be imposed on the whole range of public bodies here. No doubt in my mind that any agreement on a UI would require major revision of this act.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Did you mean to say a wolf in sheep’s clothing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Don't understand the point you’re making. Is it that the act is enforcing changes that are too extreme?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Of course, it was ushered in with little public debate by O'Cuiv. 'Mom & Apple Pie' stuff.

    The ramifications are wide ranging in comparison across the public service. And in how the state interfaces with the public. The tail wagged the dog.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭rock22


    Would you care to give some examples? Certainly I don't see it causing a problem anywhere around where I live or work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Replace ‘Irish language’ with one of my communities cultural interests eg try ‘band parades’ and the read it again and see how you feel. Or maybe if you think a parade is not equivalent the truth ‘union flags on lamp posts’

    self explanatory



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Maybe follow your own advice and get out there and get some union flags up in nationalist areas and then no one will know they are nationalist areas



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You do understand you come from a community that is world famous for 'marking territory'?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I wasn’t aware we were any better at it than yourselves, but hey, I’m always learning.

    its worth note though that my community don’t:

    turn and face a flag at their major sporting events

    begin there national tv news every day with a call to prayer jingle

    turn rivers their favourite colour

    place enormous sectarian slogans on the side of mountains

    insist on having our religious leaders sit on every sporting club board

    have schools specifically and unapologetically ‘for our own kind’ - with endless reminders for the kids up on walls

    put signs that only our community feel connected to, on streets we hold the majority on

    label and adorn all-island representative sporting teams with our own symbols and barr the other country, who makes up the teams, symbols

    I could go on and on but I think you get the drift



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    “Are you saying that you would welcome the use of Irish , but you regret the political use of the language by SF and IRA?”

    Yes



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    😁😁 Touched a nerve there.

    Paying respect to a flag is common in all communities in the world. So are denominational schools, even in the UK. Calls to prayer and religious programming happens on almost all state broadcasters, including the BBC. ETc Etc but I think you get the drift.


    You didn't answer the question by the way. Do you know that your community is famous for it's territory marking. As well as the kerb painting and flag flying a Commission had to be established to stop you doing it where it wasn't wanted.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think you are extending what I posted to a level of the absurd. The parades are of no concern if they are welcome, but if they deliberately try to parade in an area where it is well known that in that particular area they are unwelcome, well that is a deliberate provocation.

    All your examples are based on territory marking to provoke the other side. Just like soccer crowds deliberately try to provoke the other side, and that is got to the situation where the crowds are segregated by high fences.

    I wonder where else that approach has been taken. Well, having been to watch an All Ireland hurling final, the crowd was not segregated in any way and a good time was had by all. The same happens at rugby matches - no segregation at all. It is so much so, that kids can go.

    Why is there so much deep hatred on display by the (DUP) Unionists?



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement