URC 2022 Thread

crisco10 · 07-03-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324426#Comment_120324426

While I think these things could account for the level of competitiveness on the pitch in the long run of the 2 countries, I don't think the difference is as large as one has a sustainable model while the other is sinking fast.

The population argument is watered down somewhat by the presence of GAA in ireland to compete for funding/players/sponsors/media etc.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324767#Comment_120324767

It also doesn’t affect funding of the provinces. So what has it got to do with the Governances of the finances?

It gives Leinster and advantage in terms that their younger players are ready earlier. It has no fiscal impact for Leinster outside the success on the field though. It doesn’t magically make players better. It just makes them ready earlier.

You are conflating to unconnected issues.

Burkie1203 · 07-03-2023 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324426#Comment_120324426

Revenue for WRU v IRFU stacks up favourably.

How that gets spent is very different.

That's the big difference.

PMC83 · 07-03-2023 1:52pm

Alright lads! I'm conceding (and conflating)

awec · 07-03-2023 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324800#Comment_120324800

Of course it affects the funding of the provinces. Of course it has fiscal impact for Leinster. Of course it makes the players better. Honestly I don't know how you could say otherwise.

If it had no impact on funding and didn't make the players better then every other province would be churning out the same level of talent as Leinster, only the players would be a bit older than they are in Leinster when they are considered ready.

This is obviously not the case.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324877#Comment_120324877

How does it affect funding to the provinces? How do the schools directly bring income to Leinster?

The WRU are pumping £20 million a year into their clubs. How is that not being reflected in player development? That far outstrips any private school investment in Ireland.

AdamD · 07-03-2023 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324877#Comment_120324877

It doesn't affect the income side really, when we can see they are equal - though should this be a bit worrying for the IRFU? How is the revenue equal when Irish sides have better attendances at higher prices, they also play more matches due to knock out games and should have higher prize money and sponsorship?

Does the size of the millennium stadium really make up all of that difference?

On the expense side you could argue it reduces the amount Leinster need to put into grassroots development, but that's about it. If Leinster had the exact same funding as the other provinces they should still churn out better players due to population difference alone.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 07-03-2023 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325062#Comment_120325062

I think those income figures are headline figures for the union instead of for all entities put together.

Leinster/Munster/Connacht/Ulster income wouldn't show up in those accounts.

Dragons income probably shows up in the wru accounts as its a subsidiary. Ospreys Cardiff and Scarlets definitely wouldn't show up in the wru accounts.

Accounts aren't really that comparable.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325062#Comment_120325062

The England game was supposedly worth £10.5 million to them. Not sure exactly what the IRFU will make but think it’s considerably less than that.

They also have additional revenue from the hotels they own.

awec · 07-03-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325030#Comment_120325030

If the money being pumped into Leinster private schools wasn't coming from wealthy mums and dads, where do you think it would be coming from?

The notion that Leinster's incredible school system is of no financial benefit to them is, IMO, absurd. Every single cent that's spent on schools rugby is a cent:

That Leinster Rugby don't have to spend themselves
That represents an investment into assets (players) who will be of value to Leinster Rugby in future.

The same obviously applies to all provinces, though on a much smaller scale.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325361#Comment_120325361

How does it affect revenue? If it’s such an advantage and a reason for the differences between the WRU and IRFU. As is being argued. Why does the WRU generate more revenue than the IRFU.

Quite simply put, if the one or two private schools pumping huge money into their schools programs didn’t exist. The IRFU wouldn’t be replacing it. That benefits player production but could not be replicated in any other way. If it could, do you not think the IRFU would be doing it in Ulster and Connacht?

awec · 07-03-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325464#Comment_120325464

Ok, so if it went away and wasn't replaced, what do you think the impact would be on Leinster and the IRFU's bottom line?

07-03-2023 4:30pm

I honestly don't know what people here think happens in private schools. I was picking between a private and non private school for my eldest, sports facilities were very similar (non private had an astro turf pitch) despite the private school being a top feeder for the Leinster academy.

I think people are confusing money with sporting culture and are forgetting that parents will often send their kids to the same schools they went to. If you go to a school with a strong rugby playing culture, good coaching and your dad played rugby - you have the best possible chance of becoming as good a rugby player as you are destined to become.

What do people think the money is getting spent on?

Leinster branch have done a good job of standardising coaching from grass roots through clubs / schools and into the pro game. They are maximising the available playing population and have taken a highly competitive cup (SCT) and turned it into a pro conveyor. The SCT was still massively competitive, and private schools still existed when Ireland were crap.

sydthebeat · 07-03-2023 4:40pm

if these schools were such a conveyor belt of "oven ready" players, then why do leinster only take on 7 or 8 every year?

also, if they are so "oven ready" and of such a financial benefit, why arent other provinces recruiting from these schools as well? its not like they are earning a huge wedge in the leinster academy (as has been widely reported already).

pickarooney · 07-03-2023 4:41pm

If you don't go to a private school you probably play hurling or soccer or Gaelic instead. The provinces then have to fund clubs to provide professional coaching and state of the art equipment like they have in posh schools. Without parents who are big into rugby kids are less likely to join a rugby club and if they do they'll only play a couple of hours a week and not be bathing in rugby they way kids in BlackRock etc. are.

I can't believe people honestly don't think private schools and their heavy investment in rugby aren't a huge financial weight off the IRFU who otherwise would need to allocate much more funding to grassroots rugby.

sydthebeat · 07-03-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325788#Comment_120325788

or you could look at it as being a huge benefit to Munster, Ulster and Connacht that there is more money in the pot for them, due to that financial burden not being applicable to Leinster. Add to that the additional income that these provinces get from the IRFU from competition wins due to having superior players.... so really, everyone wins 😉

07-03-2023 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325788#Comment_120325788

I'm still waiting for someone to explain what they think this heavy investment is going into and why this makes these players different.

The reality in my experience (having gone to Blackrock) is that the school is just obsessed with rugby and there is a lot of competition to get on the first team. When there is a lot of competition, the standard goes up because people push themselves more. You've 200 students per year, at least 5 teams / panels per year and you double that because 5th and 6th year players go for the SCT.

Coaching and competition for places is the standard driver over everything else. Given the coaches are all teachers neither of these things have any notable cost attachment.

What Blackrock can achieve can be achieved in a non private setting, if the culture around the sport is the same.

Blut2 · 07-03-2023 5:33pm

The vast majority of the difference in performance of the Welsh professional teams vs the Irish ones is down to the fact that the 4 Welsh teams received €44mn of funding last year, vs the Irish 4 teams receiving €75mn. If you gave each of the Welsh professional teams €8mn extra funding, every year, they'd be up there with the Irish teams in competitiveness very very quickly. Regardless of the lack of Blackrock college equivalents in Cardiff.

A huge chunk of that money is being wasted on administration costs and boot money for the clubs too, its not being used for critical other uses, it could easily be redirected.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325479#Comment_120325479

It would have an impact on results I’m sure. Ultimately I don’t think it would massively affect the bottom line. Wales are absolute muck and so are the regions. Yet they still generate more revenue than us. Why do you think it would have a massive affect on revenue? Yes winning boosts revenue for Leinster but not wining doesn’t affect Munster of Ulsters revenue massively.

stephen_n · 07-03-2023 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325788#Comment_120325788

Leinster are building 5 centres of excellence all around the province. They have heavily invested in recruiting outside the schools system. There are also plenty of schools in Leinster that play rugby but aren’t private. 5 in Tallaght alone.

Lost Ormond · 07-03-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325842#Comment_120325842

A lot of the coaches especially for the principal teams in the schools ie cup teams are not teachers. in vast majority of the schools. they are outside coaches.

Blackrock are helped by being one of the biggest schools in country and yes coaching and competition are a huge help but you are very naive in you think what Blackrock can done can be achieved in a non private setting. 1 non fee paying school has won a schools senior cup ever in Leinster. The money the big schools like rock, michaels, etc put into rugby every year cant be matched by anywhere else.

StevenToast · 07-03-2023 9:57pm

I thought this was the URC thread.....

pickarooney · 07-03-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325842#Comment_120325842

Yeah, 'reality' for someone who went to BlackRock is probably worlds away from 'reality' in a poorer school where they don't have quasi-professional setups, world class gyms, top coaches, an insistence on rugby above all else and the funding of thousands of well-off parents.

Schools the length and breadth of the country have to make do with maybe one grotty patch of grass shared between four sports, an ancient set of mismatched Gaelic jerseys, disinterested teachers, pupils who barely have enough to eat, cold, dilapidated prefab classrooms and a distinct lack of Leinster, Ireland or All Black players popping by for a chat and a quick workout in the gym, which is also the basketball court and the canteen.

It's a frankly risible idea that public schools just need to git gud at rugby and they too can furnish the Ireland team with as many players as St. Michael's.

07-03-2023 10:06pm

I think the sheer volume of players involved in said schools along with a long standing track record of success are far more significant components when it comes to the Leinster senior Cup.

Virtually every coach from 1st to 6th year are teachers and outside of that volunteers (usually past pupils).

If more large, non private schools seriously committed to rugby I've zero doubt they could replicate the same success in due course.

The advantage I see with the likes of Blackrock is that the households are usually extremely driven, but this isn't exclusive to private schools.

07-03-2023 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327284#Comment_120327284

I'm pretty grounded thanks, I'm also very familiar with the standard of school and facility throughout Leinster and what you describe is a complete distortion of the norm.

Blackrock is a great school, I was the only sibling in my house that went private but I loved it there. I never played rugby, I trained to a FAR higher standard in sixth year than any of the SCT players did and the school had no part in that, just grubby pitches, hills and footpaths.

And I've been in 4 school gyms since September, Blackrock was not the best of them and the others weren't fee paying. A public school doesn't need to 'get good', it needs to be good for a generation.

Lost Ormond · 07-03-2023 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327301#Comment_120327301

Thats so naive. I ref schools games. That isnt the case in a lot of schools. Tony Smeeth trinity DOR is one of willow park coaches.... Yes your C/D/E teams are coached by past pupils but otherwise its not. Main principal teams are outside coaches.

The same cant be replicated by other schools. the budgets these schools have for rugby is ridiculous and many senior AIL clubs dont spend near as much on their entire season for the whole club as these schools spend

07-03-2023 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327371#Comment_120327371

I know plenty of GAA schools where current and former panel players show up in the same capacity. Of course Blackrock is going to have past players return, the current Leinster head coach is a former student.

Your tone implies you think schools like Blackrock should be apologetic that they've had generations of talent pass through the school willing to give back.