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Covid-19 likely to be man made

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I'm addressing the question to you because there seems to be an implication in your posts that for it to be natural virus it must be from the local area, and you are using this to imply therefore for it to be a man made virus.

    I'm pointing out that samples are brought to that lab from all over China.

    So, do you accept that a sample of a natural virus could have been brought from outside the region to a lab in Wuhan, and accidentally leaked from there?

    This is a question entirely germane to the current topic.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Yes absolutely. If you look at my post at the start of this debate I was questioning the reason a poster gave for the location of the lab in Wuhan. The claim was the Wuhan lab was established in Wuhan because of the presence of bats, 48 years before they started researching bat coronaviruses. I don’t find that credible.


    “Amazing. Yet they brought samples of bat coronavirus from 1800km away to work on.”

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    In 1956 it wasn't the study center for all of China. That came later.

    It seems plausible that the presence of abundant and diverse biological specimens in the vicinity (including but not limited to bats) would be one of the factors in its siting. Necessary but not sufficient. They don't have to be studying bat coronaviruses to be studying bats / needing bats for study.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is an article from the Atlantic which sums up the knowns and the unknowns with regard to the current state of play, and how much is being read into a 'smattering of facts':

    The central ambiguity, such as it is, of COVID’s origin remains intact and perched atop a pair of improbable-seeming coincidences: One concerns the Huanan market, and the other has to do with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where Chinese researchers have specialized in the study of bat coronaviruses. If COVID really started in the lab, one position holds, then it would have to be a pretty amazing coincidence that so many of the earliest infections happened to emerge in and around a venue for the sale of live, wild animals … which happens to be the exact sort of place where the first SARS-coronavirus pandemic may have started 20 years ago. But also: If COVID really started in a live-animal market, then it would have to be a similarly amazing coincidence that the market in question happened to be across the river from the laboratory of the world’s leading bat-coronavirus researcher … which happened to be running experiments that could, in theory, make coronaviruses more dangerous.


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Why do you say it is necessary when it is not necessary at the other locations of virology labs mentioned previously?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I can't speak for all of them, but it seems like a relevant consideration to me in the circumstances of China 1956 and the nature of the work.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    It seems that when the Wuhan Institute of Virology was established their focus was on agricultural viruses and environmental microbe research, not viruses of local wild animals. It is unlikely therefore that local wild animals would have been a consideration in the location of the lab.

    It seems more likely, as in other locations, that the viruses are brought to the lab, not that the labs are brought to the viruses.



    “The predecessor of Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences was the Wuhan Institute of Microbiology, prepared to be built in 1956, jointly established by the famous virologist academician Gao Shangyin and the famous microbiologist academician Chen Huagui and a batch of older generation scientists, formally announced to be established in 1958, mainly engaged in agricultural virus and environmental microbe research.”

    http://english.whiov.cas.cn/About_Us2016/Brief_Introduction2016/

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,825 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Finally, getting somewhere (given you have rejected multiple studies and hundreds of new virus strain being found as evidence of new virus originating near the lab, there is no convincing someone who is irrational), so you believe it was man-made and have elected Dr. Fauci as the expert in the area which means we can concentrate on that one person.

    I am not a virologist or scientist so I will bow to the superior knowledge of an expert with 50 years experience, who has access to specialist expertise and the best available data and information on the origins of Covid, Dr. Anthony Fauci, when he says he is not convinced that Covid 19 developed naturally.

    What has Dr. Anthony Fauci said in relation to the virus being man-made?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,825 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The study of bat coronavirus (at BSL-2 so multiple labs can engage in this) only really kicked off after SARS, the reason it's at level 2 for bio-safety is that bat virus don't jump to humans and need an intermediate species such as you'd get at wet markets or out in the wild, hence why scientists see study of bats as a safe thing at BSL-2 (though some are arguing that BSL-3 should be used).

    We could also include our definition of man-made to include "brought into contact purposely with an intermediate animal then leaked", the technology we have to manipulate virus doesn't yet extend to the genetic changes that SARS-COV2 has hence the consensus that it was zoonotic in origin (unless multiple labs in multiple countries run by multiple governments are hiding a secret that thousands of scientists would know about, I mean, there's the conspiracy, it's just not plausible).



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    Where are you gettig the idea that we don't have the techology to accompish the "genetic changes" SARS2 has? Even Proximal Origins didn't argue this, they said if you were going to do it, this isn't how you would do it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Look, you claimed the Wuhan Institute of Virology was located in Wuhan because of local fauna and environment.

    You then ignore all the points debunking your claim and instead try to claim I believe something that I haven’t claimed to believe

     “so you believe it was man-made”

    You seem more interested in questioning beliefs I haven’t stated than in defending beliefs you have stated.

    I don’t recall saying that Covid 19 was man made but if you can show me the quote where I said it, of course I will believe you.

    Here is an article summarising Fauci’s comments on Covid origin and lab leak theory.


    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,825 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    OK, so Fauci said no such thing about the virus being man-made.

    And you're still deathly frightened of sharing your beliefs.

    Your irrationality in the face of mountains of evidence is your own prerogative and not on others to continually question.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    You seem more interested in questioning beliefs I haven’t stated than in defending beliefs you have stated.

    Fair point, well made. I admire your patience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    You are obsessed with what you claim are my beliefs but won’t provide any quote for what you claim my beliefs to be.

    I already told you what Fauci said and I agree with him.

    You claim I am deathly frightened of sharing my beliefs yet you are telling me what my beliefs are.

    I think you are irrational continuing to claim the Wuhan Institute of Virology is based in Wuhan because of the local fauna for all the reasons I addressed, paragraph by paragraph and which you haven’t addressed.

    Now you claim that we don’t have the technology to manipulate viruses which could lead to a pandemic.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So to be clear you agree with the below - as this is what Fauci said in the article you linked:

    “the most likely origin is from an animal species to a human but I keep an absolutely open mind that there may be other origins"

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,929 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Not a great find at all - just look at this bit:

    which happens to be the exact sort of place where the first SARS-coronavirus pandemic may have started 20 years ago.

    In fairness, that quote says the absolute total of Sweetfeckall. While trying to look like it is saying something important.

    Now, on the question of whether or not the virus is manmade or not - Luc Montaignier was of the opinion that the virus was manipulated, and had a piece added in, according to an article that was published very early on. And he was as much of an expert on virology as anyone in the world, and significantly more so than Fauci.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Yes, the most likely origin is from an animal species to a human but I keep an open mind as to the possibility of other origins.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I doubt Fauci is relying entirely on his own expertise here and rather the body of experts available to the CDC.

    But as Ive said I keep an open mind.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭dtothebtotheh


    WRONG

    Coronaviruses are endemic to south east Asia , around the China, Laos, Vietnam border. Over 1000km away from Wuhan.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    But what is man made vs natural?

    It seems to be the same conflation that has been made between lab leak and engineered bio weapon.

    The virus could be natural but the pandemic man made.

    man-made

    /ˌmanˈmeɪd/

    adjective

    1. made or caused by human beings (as opposed to occurring or being made naturally


    If a lion kills people in its natural environment that is a natural incident.

    If, for example, a laboratory captures a lion in the wild and brings it into an urban area, it escapes because of poor security and kills people. That is a man made incident, caused by human beings and the people who brought the lion into the urban area and allowed it to escape are responsible.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,247 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Ah so all of those conspiracy theorists who were claiming that it was man made were actually right all along.

    Little by little things get rewritten so conspiracy theorists can never be wrong.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,787 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    But what is man made vs natural?


    seems like something you should have educated yourself on ages ago before engaging in a "man made versus natural" argument

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You admit that you developed an opinion on this in 2020 that it was a lab leak, ergo any evidence of that is "compelling" to you. That's fine. However it's very obvious all the info is going through that personal filter.

    I'm simply reflecting the science. You can open pretty much any article and it will reference what the majority of scientists and experts believe in this case. I also put stock in the FBI, I've never ruled lab leak out. The majority of scientists with a view on this and the FBI can also be correct, it can be zoonotic in origin and was accidentally leaked from a lab.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Created/modified in a lab vs transmitted by a host animal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Eh, no. You are just indulging in wilful misrepresentation again.

    If the lab leak theory as you have defined it is true do you accept that this means the pandemic was man made?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,247 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Sorry, it's not misrepresentation. It's what you are arguing by trying to redefine what was meant by man made.

    When conspiracy theorists were claiming that it was man made, they weren't referring to the idea of a lab leak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    It is complete misrepresentation. You have misrepresented the fact that a virus can be natural but a pandemic man made to

    “Ah so all of those conspiracy theorists who were claiming that it was man made were actually right all along.”

    It’s a misrepresentative straw man of your creation.

    Look, you continuously accuse others of not answering your questions, to the point of being warned about it, while steadfastly refusing to answer questions put to you. Unkinder posters than I would say it looks like hypocrisy.

    I will ask you again.

    If the lab leak theory as you have defined it is true do you accept that this means the pandemic was man made?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,247 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Lol. A virus isn't a pandemic.

    Conspiracy theorists weren't just arguing that the pandemic was man made. They were stating for a fact that the virus was man made for various different purposes.

    The claimed that the pandemic was man made in that it was faked or manipulated for various different purposes. Not because of a lab leak.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If the lab leak theory as you have defined it is true do you accept that this means the pandemic was man made?


    Surely it would be easier for you to claim that the pandemic was man made due to international air travel. Orville and Wilbur Wright were in on the conspiracy from the start and if they had just stuck to fixing bicycles we'd have been in a far better place.



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