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Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    This behavior is something I keep pointing out.

    Conspiracy theorists are ignoring and downplaying the giant pile of false claims to claim: "see we were right all along."



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    Stop deflecting and answer the question (see how that works).

    What conspiracy theory am I constructing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    My point is that you are downplaying or ignoring the conspiracy theories that were being spread both at the time or now. Or you simply arent aware of it because you didnt do any research.

    If you want to suggest a conspiracy about what was and wasn't labeled a conspiracy theory maybe you should educate yourself on what conspiracy theories were being rightly labeled first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    I don't think you understand what a conspiracy theory is.

    Maybe start there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Seymour Hersh's one has been torn to pieces. He's gone down a total rabbit hole in recent years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Weird. I thought the accusation was I was addicted to conspiracy theories.


    I know full well what conspiracy theories are thanks.

    And as someone familiar with them and actually familiar with the torrents that were being thrown out around covid, your conspiracy theory is detached from the actual reality of events. I suspect this is deliberately the case so the the theory can be presented as more credible than it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Three years of following this debate on and off. It's obvious there's a clear consensus that it was zoonotic in origin, aka that it jumped from animals as opposed to being man-made. There aren't that many scientists or experts who've supported the man-made theory and as mentioned several of those key proponents walked their views back.

    Can pull on countless articles, but this recent one sums up the current position pretty well


    "The Wall Street Journal added to that debate this week when they reported that the U.S. Department of Energy has shifted its stance on the origin of COVID. It now concludes, with "low confidence," that the pandemic most likely arose from a laboratory leak in Wuhan, China.

    The agency based its conclusion on classified evidence that isn't available to the public. According to the federal government, "low confidence" means "the information used in the analysis is scant, questionable, fragmented, or that solid analytical conclusions cannot be inferred from the information."

    And at this point, the U.S. intelligence community still has no consensus about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. Four of the eight intelligence agencies lean toward a natural origin for the virus, with "low confidence," while two of them — the DOE and the Federal Bureau of Investigation — support a lab origin, with the latter having "moderate confidence" about its conclusion."

    "But at the end of the day, the origin of the pandemic is also a scientific question. Virologists who study pandemic origins are much less divided than the U.S. intelligence community. They say there is "very convincing" data and "overwhelming evidence" pointing to an animal origin.

    In particular, scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science in July 2022, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China. Specifically, they conclude that the coronavirus most likely jumped from a caged wild animal into people at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where a huge COVID-19 outbreak began in December 2019.

    Virologist Angela Rasmussen, who contributed to one of the Science papers, says the DOE's "low confident" conclusion doesn't "negate the affirmative evidence for zoonotic [or animal] origin nor do they add any new information in support of lab origin."

    "Many other [news] outlets are presenting this as new conclusive proof that the lab origin hypothesis is equally as plausible as the zoonotic origin hypothesis," Rasmussen wrote in an email to NPR, "and that is a misrepresentation of the evidence for either."


    Most scientists are private individuals and generally don't give an opinion, especially if giving an opinion gets you labelled a conspiracy theorist and banned off social media.

    I'm referring to virologists and related experts who have given their opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    A very biased article that presents the arguments for natural spillover and makes no attempt to balance it by interviewing those who outline why a lab leak (whether a natural virus that was collected in the wild, or a virus that came from gain of function research). Note the dismissive tone after mentioning that two US government agencies favor lab leak.. "but at the end of the day the origin of the pandemic is also a scientific question" implying the DOE and FBI conclusions are not based on science. The DOE ffs has more experts in the revelvant fields (molecular biology, genomics, virology, computational biology) than any other entity on the planet, they have a huge research group focussed on biological pathogens and biological warfare.

    So what is this "overwhelming evidence" of natural spillover at the wet market they reference? The problem with the Worobey papers are they rely entirely on data provided by the CCP, about as untrustworthy a source yoiu could ask for in terms of uncovering the truth. The CCP have demonstrated zero interest in discovering the source of the pandmeic, who would anyone trust what they say? Even if there were a cluster of cases at this market, there is also little question there were earlier cases, and there is also little question that the data is doctored and incomplete, as you would expect from a totalitarian regime.

    There is no "overwhelmng evidence" for natural spillover or lab leak, but the circumstantial evidence in favor of lab leak is quite compelling. The closest progenitor to SARS2 was in the lab, had been collected from a cave in Yunnan along with hundreds of other samples of bat virus. They were conducting gain of fucntion experiments to insert human adapted RBDs into bat coronavirus backbones (this is published). Qhat other experiments were being run and unpublished? We don't know because they took down their entire database in late December and it has never been restored...

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    There is of course the possibility that this was deliberate misinformation. One government “source” leaks him detailed information, parts of which can be refuted, thus discrediting the idea the US were involved in destroying the destroyed pipeline they promised to destroy.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    The CT'ers are just hairsplitting, no surprise there, obsessing about 'made' really. No different with the roots of Holocaust Denial which tend to obsess about individual words in documents, one of the paleoDeniers was some loser lunatic named Rassinier, who the old deniers loved to quote as having found an error in a report - sure enough, there was a misplaced semicolon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    It is just bad faith discussion and hypocrisy on your behalf King Mob. You won’t answer a question you have been asked yet admonish others.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, this is a misrepresentation of my point and my argument. This is not a good faith argument on your part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Says the poster who has not yet answered a question posed multiple times.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭geospatial


    The term "man made" has always been ambiguous to anyone with a functioning brain.



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  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    I read a really interesting thread on twitter over the weekend.

    It was based on the UK water industry (which has been privatised) and how they were, essentially, using Brexit as a means to bypass EU regulations so they could pump piss and **** into UK bathing waters, requesting govt. funding/increasing prices to help rectify the issue and using that money to pay dividends to shareholders instead of using it to fix the problems. The prediction at the end was that they'd come back this summer, cap in hand, looking for a bailout from the government, despite the fact they've handed over about €1.8 billion to the shareholders every year.

    It was very well written and sourced, but of course I can't find it now. Certainly started to convince me by the end. The only report I can actually remember is this one (in .pdf format) named "The Privatised Water Industry in the UK. An ATM for investors.", which states:

    Our econometric analysis suggests that the 40% increase in real household bills since privatisation was mainly driven by continuously growing interest payments on debt, contrary to the regulator attributing them to growing costs and investments. Finally, we show that the accelerating debt levels are primarily the result of disproportionate dividend pay-outs

    Certainly seemed credible from the sources he had linked.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Okay folks, there is already a thread discussing whether Covid was man made here. If you want to discuss it further, that's the appropriate place for it, there's no point in having two threads devoted to it. I'm going to move the last few posts over to that for context.

    However, the discussion seems pretty much exhausted and at this stage if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion do not continue with a back and forth argument that goes no where. As per the charter:

    Trying to spend 100 odd posts convincing 1 or 2 specific users that your views are more valid than theirs is what causes the most issues. You have to accept that not all people are willing to alter their beliefs to suit you - and they have the freedom to hold those beliefs

    HS



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Seymour is known for gathering information from multiple sources before printing a story, so the fact that the CIA is blaming a pro-Ukranian group for the incident suggests that the CIA is running a cover story. Many insiders may be worried that the Biden administration has used a secret military unit to blow up Nord Stream pipelines without congressional approval. These actions pose a very serious threat and may result in nuclear conflict.It is my hope that this will all come to light so that people can see for themselves that secret military operations like these do exist. I heard Hersh is still working on the story and more information will be forthcoming.

    If it is revealed that the US attacked them, there will be a big political earthquake in Germany. The Germans are now trying to protect themselves as well. Bringing a sailboat into the Baltic (NATO cover area) civilians dived into the saltiest waters on earth to bring explosives down and place them on pipes without any training (huh)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    His "Bin Laden killing was a conspiracy" was largely based on one anonymous source from Pakistan.

    He was a good journalist back in the day, now he's more known for producing strange stuff that is just plain bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Wasn’t the Watergate scandal largely revealed from information from one anonymous source?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Keyword: revealed. Not sure what's happened to the man since, but something did. He thinks 9/11 was an inside job and maintains that the Skripals weren't poisoned by Putin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    The accusations of the single anonymous source were verified after the existence of automatic voice recordings from the White House were discovered.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    if you mean Woodward's source "Deep Throat," his name was Mark Felt and he passed away a few years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(Watergate)

    Alexander Butterfield gave out the existence of the tape recording equipment. Lots and lots of information came from many sources of Watergate, John Dean was a big contributor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,483 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    "Seymour is known for gathering information from multiple sources before printing a story"

    Except when he doesn't. Like in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Russian paramilitaries and mercenaries running amok in Africa, probably not attractive as it makes everyone's favourite thug in chief/totally legit billionaire look bad.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/witnesses-unravel-chinese-mass-murder-085649436.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Hopefully the European powers will take Russia to task for their abhorrent behaviour in Africa.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The above is either common knowledge or unsurprising behaviour, therefore unlikely to find any interest in it on conspiracy theory forums where believers are more attracted to speculation that makes them feel "special" often neatly implicating their favorite "baddies".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I think it's also partially that the produces of conspiracy guff know that covering this kind of thing isn't as profitable. So there's less of these stories that wind up on theorists newsfeeds and there's less for them to copy and paste.

    Also, whenever Russia/Putin get brought up in conspiracy circles, it's often in a positive light cause Putin's selling himself as "anti-woke" and this plays well to conspiracy theorists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,691 ✭✭✭storker


    I'll just leave this here...

    What many have been saying all along. Those who claim to be abe to sniff out conspiracies where there's no evidence seem to be blind to those for which there's plenty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Right but the story is about Russian Wagner mercenaries killing workers at a mine run by the Chinese.

    It also contains a link to a story from a Middle East outlet that Wagner killed up to 100 mine workers in CAR last year (there were multiple attacks reported last year)

    In attempting to dismiss it, and whatabout it onto something else, you're demonstrating what posters have been saying all throughout this thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Narrative: "The West is evil"

    Conspiracy: Global free press is all controlled.

    Aim: To get people to distrust factual information so it can be replaced by distorted narratives.

    Used by: Alex Jones and pretty much every conspiracy theorist.

    Examples: Every page of this sub-forum and any conspiracy site



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Conspiracies happen every day, only have to turn on the news. "Conspiracy theories" of the type discussed here, not so much, which ones have recently become fact?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    A stunning turn of events is China's ability to bring Saudi Arabia and Iran to an agreement. In reality, Saudi Arabia's relationship with the United States was distorted for quite some time. They saw what happened over Ukraine and how the United States and European Union completely stole Russian money placed there. Is it worth gambling on losing fortunes because the United States has decoded they no longer like you? Countries are hoping to free themselves from the United States' hold on them, and they are betting that BRICS will become the most powerful economic alliance in the next ten to twenty years. The United States will be in trouble if more countries don't view the dollar as a reserve currency. Their entire budget is built upon the dollar being number one. If the Yuan takes over, then they will be in serious trouble.  



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Nope. China jumped in at the end and claimed they negotiated the peace. I bet you got your narrative from non-western news rather than media that is free in the west.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    First ... I qualify I do not support any war incl Russian war in Ukraine ... all these wars are evil ....

    What bugs me though is .... we are supposed to condemn ... and rightly so ... this Russian invasion of Ukraine ... yet we were supposed to be ok with the 2003 invasion of Iraq or 20 years of war in Afghanistan that started with ousting the Taliban and ended with a restoration of the Taliban ... Russia had a better argument regarding Ukraine as it was near them and a part of it at one time ... Iraq and Afghanistan were never part of the USA ....

    How many evil regimes have come about because of the West's war mongering .... ISIS came out of the Iraq war ... worse than Saddam ... there was nothing too wrong with the 2013-2021 Iranian government ... but Trump decided he would take them down ... now Iran has a regime that presides over a broken economy and all they want to do is catch women who have no veils on .... thank you Trump ...

    And Trump is about as big a despot as anyone from anywhere else in the world .... Trump stands for evil and would cause a war in his own country too .... he nearly did in January 2021 .... and he still tries to stir up insurrection as good as any ISIS or Al Qaeda preacher could do ...

    And if you think Trump was the only bad US president ... think again ... just look up all the countries invaded in the wrong ... Vietnam is one example ... Iraq another ... Bill Clinton went to war with 4 different countries IIRC .... sometimes to divert attention away from his personal scandals ...

    Every country that is a mess today is more often than not in that mess because of the West ... Iran (Trump's sanctions) .... Iraq (wars directed on it by 3 US presidents against Saddam) ... Afghanistan (who armed the Taliban against the USSR I wonder?) ... the West esp USA is in no position to point the finger at anyone ... they were in more wars than Russia was ....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    I’m not but



  • Registered Users Posts: 476 ✭✭Ramasun


    Conspiracy theories are a conspiracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,231 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Majorities in many countries were against the Iraq war, and it sparked the largest global anti-war protests in history. The UN didn't support it, traditional allies were firmly against it. It was a terrible decision led by two administrations at the time.

    Also, countries aren't people. The UK isn't a person. If e.g. Rishi Sunak condemns the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, he can. He isn't a hypocrite because someone from another party 20 years ago pushed to invade Iraq.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Besides the US didn’t just arm the Taliban. They supported various factions who fought against the Russians, unfortunately in the civil war that came later the Taliban would be the victors. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan probably played the biggest part in developing the Taliban into what they ste today.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,487 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    Imagine this…a real conspiracy ignored by conspiracy theorists. Maybe it’s not crazy enough for them.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Too boring. No microchips, WEF, or pedos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,552 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,407 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Weirdly, there are some great podcasts and youtube videos out there on real conspiracies, scams and shady businesses out there.

    They make for some fascinating content, but because the information really isn't that shocking, and doesn't really tie into certain world views, they aren't as interesting to some people.



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