Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

pjohnson · 09-03-2023 11:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333653#Comment_120333653

Balance is of course welcome. Off topic rubbish about "trans" not so much.

knucklehead6 · 09-03-2023 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333624#Comment_120333624

No, they wouldn’t.

SOME might have been.

There are the Uber religious people who see anything other than totally heterosexual married couples as godless abominations.

There are the -phobes, be that Homo, Trans, or whatever. Let’s just call them what they are and that they’ll be afraid of anything different.

There are the trolls, who will argue that grass is purple just to be contrary.

Then there are the people who would support Burke just as a way of sticking it to the man, and would maintain that the school changing their policy regarding trans students is a bridge too far

Those 4 subsets wouldn’t have the massive numbers you might think

09-03-2023 11:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333715#Comment_120333715

First offence, he'll get a warning and told to go home and behave, most likely. To which Mammy et al will object loudly.

Poor Daddy, trying to juggle all these extra car journeys now Simeon got himself arrested.

I wonder if he'll drop Enoch at WHS then proceed to the District Court for Simeon.

Former Former Former · 09-03-2023 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333731#Comment_120333731

Citizens are allowed to differ you know. That is how society works.

Society doesn't work if people can pick and choose the laws they want to obey.

The Burkes are in this weird twilight zone of running to the courts and WRC for compensation when it suits them, and ignoring them when it doesn't. Just like they pick the parts of the bible that suit them, and ignore the bits that don't.

They're just bad people using religion to cover their tracks. This isn't a new phenomenon in Ireland, but it's fantastic that we don't put it with it any more. Too many people got away with horrible things in the past by brandishing a bible or being 'respected in the community'.

archermoo · 09-03-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333731#Comment_120333731

I'm quite happy to admit that he had a reasonable case. Past tense. He threw it out the window when he decided to try getting his way by being a bully instead. The actual case now is entirely about his behavior. As the appellate court confirmed this week.

archermoo · 09-03-2023 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333783#Comment_120333783

The actual mental health professionals, along with the science on the matter, don't agree with you. Linguists too for that matter.

archermoo · 09-03-2023 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333876#Comment_120333876

No, it won't. And yes they are, which scares the h3ll out of transphobes.

Burke is just another scofflaw.

yourdeadwright · 09-03-2023 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333826#Comment_120333826

There's nothing to be afraid off,

People can be whatever they like iv no issues with that each to there own , but don't expect me to believe in alternate reality's & discard fact of science because you do ,

What other facts & reality's of this world are we allowed to discard or do i have to wait till you decide which ones we can over look ?

They/Them clearly refers to 2 or more people i care about singular & plural distinctions who are you to change that ?

Do what you like but don't expect other to play your stupid games ,

AndrewJRenko · 09-03-2023 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333731#Comment_120333731

Have you any idea of the damage you would be doing to a trans child by 'avoiding decisions' about a fundamental aspect of their persona?

By avoiding a decision, you're actually making a decision to ignore a very serious matter, and you will cause untold harm to that person, that will be with them for the rest of their life.

ohnonotgmail · 09-03-2023 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333911#Comment_120333911

They/Them clearly refers to 2 or more people i care about singular & plural distinctions who are you to change that ?

It doesn't. You are simply incorrect on this. We have others say the same thing who used the singular they/them in their reply without even realising they have done it. You probably use the singular they/them without even realising you are doing it.

yourdeadwright · 09-03-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333923#Comment_120333923

They may use it but they are using the word incorrectly ,

knucklehead6 · 09-03-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333911#Comment_120333911

There have been Gay, Bi and Trans people since the dawn of time. Outdated social constructs forced those people into hiding who they are. Modern social constructs are much more accepting, even if some cling to the past.

As for the They/Them... Enoch himself referred to the student as Them in court.

This isn't a game for some people, this is real life. The fact that you consider it a game, and your posts this morning tell me all i need to know about you. Subset2.

09-03-2023 11:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333944#Comment_120333944

Your dead wright.

Dial Hard · 09-03-2023 11:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333923#Comment_120333923

I can only assume the people (incorrectly) insisting that they/them only refers to plural subjects weren't paying much attention to their grammar lessons as children. This is literally primary school stuff, like.

artvanderlay · 09-03-2023 11:44am

Slightly off topic but I'd love to see Louis Theroux spend a week with the Burkes. Or else do a wifeswap type show where Enoch has to become a drag act for a week, and Panti moves in with the Burkes.

Hungry Burger · 09-03-2023 11:46am

The transgender issue aside, The way in which Burke and his family approached this whole affair is shocking. Having a religious belief isn’t an excuse for being in contempt of court and being an absolute nuisance for everyone.

The only people still supporting Burke are the Right Wing culture warriors who will just support anything they perceive to be “on their side” and I’m saying this as someone who could hardly be described as Left Wing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-03-2023 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333911#Comment_120333911

You don't have to. All you have to do is not be a dick.

But if its a condition of your employment, then you have a decision to make, and it's between you and your employer.

yourdeadwright · 09-03-2023 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333945#Comment_120333945

All power to them , iv nothing against Gay or Bi or Trans at all hope they all live happy fulfilling life's some of the nicest people iv ever meet.,

Just don't expect me to play make believe

So you put me in your Subset 2 ,for my veiws, but this is my real life not a game, So why do try to offend me ? Why is it ok for you to try to offend me ( you failed) , what makes your make believe reality more important than mine ?

Your name is very adapt

knucklehead6 · 09-03-2023 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334016#Comment_120334016

I haven't tried to offend you at all, and I think its interesting that you seem to think that I have.

ohnonotgmail · 09-03-2023 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333944#Comment_120333944

your lack of understanding doesn't make other people incorrect.

Quin_Dub · 09-03-2023 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324522#Comment_120324522

Apologies for quoting my own post , but I think it's a useful reminder/refresher for some of the recent arrivals to the thread.

Everything that has happened to Enoch Burke in this whole affair is exclusively as a result of his behaviour.

His beliefs don't enter into it at all.

Had his original reason for complaining to the School principal been about the brand of tea-bags available in the Staff-room and he had subsequently done all the things that he has done , he would still be in exactly the same place as he is now.

As I and others have said many times , if he had been capable of behaving like a functioning member of society and had followed the formal grievance process to register his complaint he would likely have gotten some support ,not a majority by any measure but he could have worked his way through the courts and forced an actual legal ruling on the extents of "religious freedom/expression" and indeed equality rights.

I don't think he would have been at all happy with the likely outcome , but it would have been very helpful for all concerned to have that clarity provided by the courts.

Instead , all he has highlighted is a weakness in our legal system for dealing with stubborn belligerent zealots.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-03-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334016#Comment_120334016

Bit you don't have to play make-believe -you just have to respect someone you claim to have nothing against.

crusd · 09-03-2023 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333783#Comment_120333783

You say " There are the trolls, who will argue that grass is purple just to be contrary " yet the whole thing started because the loons say he must call a person they/them

Sign Once again, the school asked people to refer to the student as they. Referring to someone as they does not mean does not require a person to recognise their gender change. And even then they (Enoch) could have simply chosen to refer to the individual by their name. And voiced his opposition to the principal, board of management, department...etc.

But no, what Enoch choose to do was use a school assembly with all the students present to raise a ruccous. Even if you don’t believe in the students choice can you not see that vilifying the student like this in a public meeting among their peers shows at best a complete absence of any human decency and empathy?

And then when asked to stop his show boating and take the discussion through the proper channels he proceeded to angrily chase the principal around the hall, shouting at a berating them. In your own work what do you think would be the consequence if you decided to engage in such behaviour in your workplace?

The weak minded think this is about Enoch standing up to the “woke” agenda. The reality is it’s about him being a c*nt, acting the c*nt and then refusing to acknowledge he was being c*ntish and apologising for his behaviour.

ohnonotgmail · 09-03-2023 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334056#Comment_120334056

The judges summing up of his behaviour is damning

22. A particular feature of Mr. Burke’s approach is the degree of verbal aggression and disrespect exhibited in his engagement particularly towards the school Principal. Such conduct is alluded to as having taken place in the confines of a staff meeting in May 2022. More importantly on Mr. Burke’s own version of events he interrupted a formal church service on the 21st June 2022 at the school at which the officiant was Bishop Glenfield. His demeanour and unorthodox behaviour were very much evident in the course of the presentation of his appeal before this court. He granted himself free rein to speak disparagingly about and deploy language calculated to traduce and demean those with whose conduct or decisions he did not agree. The conduct of Mr. Burke at the religious service in the chapel was wholly disrespectful towards the school Principal and entirely inappropriate. By the standards of civilised behaviour his conduct was simply outrageous. [...]

27. By any measure the disruption of the Chapel Service in June 2022 at which the Bishop was officiating was wholly unorthodox and Mr. Burke’s lack of insight into the inappropriateness of his behaviour speaks to either his inability or unwillingness to engage in dialogue or discussion as one might conventionally expect to find in a school setting where through the mechanism of dialogue a means would be arrived at which would be mutually respectful of the teacher’s concerns on the one hand and the spiritual and moral values of a student and their family on the other.

28. The appellant appears to lack all insight into the extent to which his conduct was inappropriate, undermining, intimidating, contumelious towards and demeaning of the school Principal. Even on his own version of events, his behaviour was confrontational and wholly out of place having regard to the nature of the event as a ceremony of religious worship, the wide variety of attendees and the solemnity of the occasion. His approach in all matters appears to be directed towards getting his own way at all costs whilst being incapable and/or unwilling to engage in respectful dialogue in an effort to achieve a mutually acceptable compromise which might adequately address his concerns. One is driven to the conclusion that he quite enjoys conflict and confrontation and the passing notoriety his wilful and contumacious contempt of court has bought him.

crusd · 09-03-2023 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333944#Comment_120333944

Even you hero uses it in the singular.

They and them is constantly used as a singular pronoun where a specific gender is unknown or ambiguous or where it is irrelevant to the topic.

They is also a singular pronoun, and it has been for centuries. Lexicographers have determined that as far back as the 1300s, they and its related forms have been used to refer to an indefinite referent—that is, an unspecified, unknown person.

For example: Each student should get their supplies ready for class. Each student is singular, but we don’t know (or need to know) the gender or sex identity of each student in this situation, so their is a perfectly handy gender-neutral option.

Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, and many other beloved writers of the English literary canon used this indefinite singular they. If it was good enough for them, then we say: chill out, modern grammarians. Opposition of the usage is considerably waning these days, though, we should note.

https://www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/they-is-a-singular-pronoun/