NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

I wouldn't assume that they were feeling confident. They knew what they wanted; they knew what they didn't want; and they knew what they didn't want had been staved off. But it didn't follow that they were confident that this state of affairs would endure - the attempt by the NI government to collapse the boundary review points to the opposite of confidence about this, surely? And, remember, when you're talking about the grassroots unionist community, you need to remember that in border areas that was the minority community — and they were very aware of that.

It may be a mistake in 1922 to speak of "the grassroots unionist community" as a coherent block. It's speculation on my part, but it's quite possible that, say, unionists in and around Belfast assumed that, with the relative wealth and industrial strength of Belfast as a foundation, NI was economically and politically secure and they derived comfort from this, while unionists in Fermanagh, Tyrone, etc might have been more affected by the risk that they would shortly find themselves in the Free State. And of course they would all have known unionists who already found themselves in the Free State, so this wasn't a remote or inconceivable scenario to them. Even if they also believed that a rump NI centred on Down and Antrim might endure, that wasn't necessarily a lot of consolation to them.

As we know, the creation of NI was very consciously a trade-off between maximising the area (and so the prosperity and viability) of NI and minimising the number of nationalists included within it — too many nationalists, and the political sustainability of the project is called into question. That's why a movement that identified as "Ulster Unionism" settled for six, rather than nine, counties. But I don't think it was a given that the balance they eventually struck - six counties - would turn out to the right balance. We know with hindsight that NI did survive; we can't project our hindsight back to them.

I am also tired of this one francie. Everyone should be able to see that you are creating a fog of various agreements, letters, annex’s etc and continually refer to agreements and commitments governments made and imply that they were then the responsibility of the dup to enact.

I am finished with this circular argument also. Dup did not renege on a commitment they made around an ILA (fact)

It is not often mentioned, but there was also a class aspect to the gerrymandering and control that the Unionist elite organised.

Labour and Independent Unionist candidates representing working class Protestant and Catholic voters defeated Unionist candidates almost without exception under the PR system. The elite feared a split in the Protestant vote and the new system of voting eliminated that risk and made sure that Craig got his wish to make elections about that 'one issue'.

I doubt very much that NI unionists accepted that staying in the UK would be temporary. But I suspect rather more of them you supposed feared that it would be temporary.

To be honest, Francie has made at least one point which is hard to deny; nothing about the history of NI from 1922 to 1972 suggests that its governing class was ever confident about the survival of the state.

I’m not sure there behaviour was because the feared being thrown out of the Uk. More like it was blatant sectarianism and control freakery, undoubtedly not unrelated to what was happening to their kinfolk across the border. Both states operated from unreasonable sectarian mindsets

Nobody said that though. Downcow pivoted to that because he couldn't deny that the DUP and all parties + the Irish and the UK government signed an agreement that included a commitment to an ILA.

That was never claimed. What was claimed was that the DUP signed an agreement which included a provision to introduce an Irish Language Act. They were a party to that agreement

The Irish government signed the Maastrict Treaty which established the introduction of the Euro. Part of that agreement was that France (for example) would adopt the Euro. The Irish government obviously had no hand in implementing the adoption of the Euro in France. Are you seriously trying to claim that the Irish government didn't agree that France would adopt the Euro? Because that's as absurd an argument as downcow is making

Didn't they sign an agreement that stated the Stormont Executive would work "to enhance and protect the development of the Irish language"?

If so then why did they do they exact opposite, by not allowing the ILA?

Can you not see the point being made through your orange tinted lenses?

There will be plenty who will try to disguise the DUP's bigoted rejection of anything Irish.

Nobody said that they agreed to it at St Andrew's. What was said was they signed an agreement that had within it a committment to an Irish Language Act.

Their a lá carte approach to agreements is now well established.

The language of the document was written precisely that way so that the DUP wouldn't be committing to supporting an Irish Languages Act. You don't need an ILA to enhance and protect the development of the Irish language, there are many ways in which that objective can be achieved.

IF the drafters of the document wanted to commit the DUP to supporting an ILA, the document would have said exactly that. It didn't. It didn't even commit the British government to vote for one, only to introduce it to Westminister. These agreements say what they say and only that.

I would content that an Irish language act will have an extremely negative effect on Irish language in ni. It will just draw it further into the divisive politics

Latest rumours in unionist community suggest dup will neither accept or reject FM (as I said a while ago). Likely they will moan about it and garner a little more movement. They will still not accept it but likely will return to stormont and in the words of Sam McBride, “give the brake a few yanks to check if it works”.

I think they will lose more votes to jim allistair if they go back, so they won’t go back until after May elections.

the SOS has made quite a claim that they will want to test

The problem the DUP has is that it isn't a government and no longer has a veto. The belief it has, has led it up many cul de sacs since the Anglo Irish Agreement.

They have lost every time they have tried to effect a veto. When the penny drops with them is anyone's guess.

Has to be the most bitter and divisive politician on these islands. Considering he is the only MLA in his party how he gets the access he gets is something the BBC should be ashamed of.