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The eviction ban

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,755 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The numbers don't look significant.

    298,000 registered tenancies. 600 availing of the exemption in 2022 (extrapolation of first-half figures). Is that 0.2%?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The problem is it's not just the house you cannot write off. If you replace windows in a house, if you upgrade the house in any way you cannot write down the expenditure. In any other business you can write down such expenditure to wear and tear.

    If you own a car dealership and upgrade your show rooms you are allowed to write down the cost.

    In the last 6-7 years there is something like 30 changes to rental regulations. You cannot now charge more than a month's rent as a deposit. Now that is grand where you are in large urban area's and are at market rent, if you fall outside these areas you deposit could be in the 500-1k bracket which is nothing compared to the risk involved. As well tenants now withhold the last month's rent.

    You cannot recover unpaid rent or cost of damage to property if that happens.

    You are now required to get an electrical cert for houses evey five years. It's anything from 4-8 hours at 80-120/ hour.

    I am not sure how many rental properties are in the country, I think it's at 3-400k or above. If we assume an average unit price across the country of 250k, for every 100k houses that is 25 billion in investment. This puts the cost of HAP in perspective.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    This thing about a tax break is mad, given how high rents are.

    There is already a financial incentive to rent out property, if you doubt that then go onto daft.ie and check out the asking prices.

    But there are other issues and fears about the future. Relatively small scale Landlords ( I’m currently one myself and know several others) have been spooked by the level of intervention from the Government .

    Pre pandemic I got a huge list of things I needed to do to the house from the county council. It cost thousands and the tenants said to me the requirements were very excessive. Loads of other landlords had the same experience and these things do prod people to sell and take their equity.

    Then we have RPZ. A lovely idea in theory, but if you had good tenants and charged moderate rent you couldn’t raise it to market rate. Again some people get pissd off and sell.

    In the crazy world we live in the State offers protection to people who go opt not to pay their rent, and also introduced an eviction ban. You literally couldn’t take back your own property for the last six months. And there’s little you can do if some gouged just decides to stop paying what they owe.

    And all of this has happened with a centre-right government. You won’t be surprised to learn that hordes of people are getting out because SF are likely to be in government soon. What will they do, have landlords pay the tenants to live in their houses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭lotusm


    Had 2 properties, sold 1 last year... currently selling the other apartment to my tenant ... always charged a fair rent... getting out as not worth the hassle and rights of property owners being diminished... also I think interest are going to go at least another 2 to 3% within the next 12 months... . This will bring more rentals on to the market to be sold. if the government gave us the same tax treatment as corporate landlords I would not be selling...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,374 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    It might be paid on dividends but it may not. There is a lot of mis information about tax on this thread. Where the property is in a fund there will be no tax on the rental income and bo tax on the capital gains. There might be tax on the dividends but where the dividends are paid to a non resident the Irish govt will not see any of that tax in the majority of cases.

    Where a property is in a company the rents are taxed at 25%. Gains are chargeable within the company and again there might be tax on dividends if paid to an Irish resident.

    The individual is taxed at (usually) 52% on the rental income and 33% on the capital gains.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Deeec


    You forgot though that if an individual then wants to extract income from the company they will be taxed at 52% ( depending on the the individuals total other income).This structure is no use to a landlord with 1 or a few properties.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,374 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I didn't as it depends if they are Irish resident or not. You are correct though that if an Irish person has a company containing properties they will be taxed at 52% on any dividends. If the company does not pay that dividend that also may have to pay a close company surcharge of 20%.

    The winners here are clearly the funds



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Of course it all depends on where the shareholder or owner of the company is tax resident. An Irish person could have invested in one of the REITs and be paying 0% tax as they are tax resident in Portugal. Owning a single property as an individual is not very tax efficient.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,374 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Owning a single property in a company is even less efficient (fairly stupid actually)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Well there will also be additional overheads to running the company too. Of course it doesn't make sense for a single property. It is still possible as far as I am aware to buy a property as part of a "small self administered pension scheme", but I was told by my investment advisors there are some EU changes that will make this more difficult in the future.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭howiya


    So are individual landlords misguided in wanting the same tax treatment as corporate landlords?

    Or is what they should be saying that they wanted to be treated the same as investment funds?



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    I hate the landlords attitude of acting like they're the victim and all that but the eviction ban should never have been put in place. This was always going to happen, a big song and dance from opposition about how government are choosing to increase homelessness.

    Why is the housing crisis worse than last year when we've built 30k units? Maybe look at the root cause and look at the number of migrants (refugees etc) coming here in the past year.

    If we had net 0 immigration last year, the housing crisis would have eased slightly due to the extra supply.

    It's far easier to restrict/disincentivise people coming here than it is to build the numbers of houses needed to solve the housing problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    >You are now required to get an electrical cert for houses evey five years. It's anything from 4-8 hours at 80-120/ hour.

    How many actually do this?

    Can you give a link to the requirements?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Any LL where the tenants are in receipt of HAP have to get it done as LA inspect houses. It's only part of the rental act statutory requirements. You also have to have window restrictors in place on upstairs windows that can be pushed past in the case of a fire. Really fiddly faddly yokes that need replacing every time. Fire alarms gave to be within 10 years of there manufacturing date.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    That's just give and take so.

    One of the landlords main complaints is the risk of a tenant not paying, so if you have a HAP tenant, the HAP is guaranteed to be paid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Incorrect again. Hap rates have not risen since 2016. Tenants would be paying anything from 15-50% top up as well tenants have to pay the LA part of the rent as well. If the tenant stops paying them the LA stops p paying the LA. LA pay in arrears and will only let you know of a stopped payment 7-10 days before stopping it. So you are actually in the exact same risk area

    Basically you like many other totally have no idea of the working of the rental market. Most of you are making assumptions that have no understanding of the reality out there. As well the LA are starting to inspect a larger portion of rental properties that are not in HAP. I think not down to that there inspection department can no longer be used as a HAP enforcement section

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    This was one of a few dozen requirements I found out I had when a Council inspector dropped by one day. The tenants were taken aback at the ridiculous things required, they actually offered to not answer the door to him again.

    Some time later I heard on the local radio that 97% of rental houses were not passing these inspections. The story was presented as if tenants were living in squalor, but the fact the figure was 97% actually told how farcical the requirements are.


    A country that puts the type of pressure on landlords that Ireland does simply doesn't want decent landlords, or deserve them. With the way the State has behaved over the last few years it shouldn't be surprised there's such an exodus.


    The mad thing is I think at the time people in Government felt they were helping tenants with things like eviction bans and overly zealous inspections. Belatedly they realised they weren't. SF also know they weren't, but they won't admit it, they'd rather criticise the Government than acknowledge the eviction ban and introduction of RPZs have been disastrous for tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    You also need to get it done if you have private tenants.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,374 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I would say the individual is in a better position than a corporate.

    There is no way on earth that anyone is going to extend fund treatment to individual landlords.

    I would note that a landlord is quite free to put all the rent they receive into a pension fund where (assuming they have reckonable other earnings) will reduce the tax to a marginal rate of 12% rather than 52%. This is what I have been doing for a number of years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    There should be two types of renters, 

    Private renters, who are students, young and finding their feet, first job, first serious relationship. Just moved to the country, town, city... 

    Basically it suits these people to be mobile, they want to live close to work, the night life... Eventually these people will settle down an buy a pleace.

    Socal renters who rent from the state. They need social support for what ever reason. They might be single or families.. These people will probably rent this property long term possibly forever. 

    Private Landlords are not social workers, their social responsibility ends with paying their taxes. If one of their tenants needs SW short term fine they get rent allowance but if needs to be long term they move into social housing from the state.  

    That's the way it was in the 80, 90 and early 2000's. The state stopped building social housing and sold a lot of it too. They never replace what they sold. We're in this mess because of the state,not of because of small or large landlords it's 100% on the last 4 to 5 governments. Particularly FG. They were in governments for the last 10+ years. During a time then it was free to borrow, they could easily have borrowed billions in ring fenced funds to build social housing. That ship has sailed now.  

    Post edited by spaceHopper on


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,374 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    The self admin schemes have been effectively regulated out of existence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I pointed that out in my original post on it to @farmingquestion. It regulatory across the sector. However you were guaranteed a visit as a HAP LL.

    Agree entirely. The rules are crazy. I did up an old farmhouse that I rent. It has 2' (600mm)thick stone walls. The LA inspector wanted a 4''pipe from the cooker hood extractor fan. I had got special charcoal filters for it.

    There seemed to be a necessity to find something wrong with every houses no matter how good the house is. The reality is 90% of owner occupied homes would fail the standard.

    It's like the requirements to service an oil boiler. An oil boiler is basically a diesel motor without an oil sump or filters. There is nothing to service in it. 95% are external to the house. Any internal one are required to have smoke and monoxide alarms on the same room.

    When you take your car for a service dose the mechanic start fiddling with the actual engine.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    Not sure what HAP levels have got to do with it? I never said HAP covered all rent. You also don't have to rent to a HAP tenant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I have a SSAP but I don't have a property as part of my portfolio. I heard very few, if any, advisors are opening new SSAPs



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    You are waffling and changing you story quote from

    ''One of the landlords main complaints is the risk of a tenant not paying, so if you have a HAP tenant, the HAP is guaranteed to be paid''.

    You cannot refuse to rent to a HAP tenant again you are waffling. Even if you did at the beginning of the rental phase if they present you with a HAP and you refuse to accept it you are leaving yourself open to serious fines.

    Again I will reiterate you have no clue of the reality of the rental market.

    It a bit like the person that thinks the plumber that is charging 80/ hour is earning 3.2k a week in take home pay

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    Of course you can choose to not rent to a HAP tenant.

    I house share and I can choose whoever I like to house share with.

    Let's not act like landlords aren't well able to play the game and that ye'r all whiter than white.

    i.e easy way of not renting to HAP tenant is asking them for work references and asking about their job. But you already knew that...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Totally ludicrous stuff. Only a brand new house, unoccupied, would pass the inspector I got.

    Thousands had to be spent unnecessarily and the tenants were paying below market rent. Obviously the rent can't stay low when you have extra costs heaped on you.

    The whole thing is so needless and self defeating. Bad for tenants, bad for landlords.

    Eviction bans are another poor measure. It is so hard to get someone out of your own property now, even if they start stealing from you by refusing to pay what they owe.


    If the Government had not introduced RPZs, taken a realistic approach to property maintenance and also not protected people who don't pay their rent, they'd have helped tenants hugely. Instead they did the exact opposite and are surprised rents shot up and availability disappeared.

    And these jackasses in SF and PBP want to keep going in the same direction. It's some country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Deeec


    You do realise a tenant on HAP can have a job - its not just for the unemployed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    Yep. And yet somehow in all my years of taking in people, of all the people I've offered the room to, not one has ever told me that they receive HAP.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I think you are trolling at this stage. You cannot ask for a reference from an employer any longer.

    If I posted what you posted about using methods to avoid HAP tenants I would receive an infraction from a mod.

    Aside from that TENANTS CAN EXPECT YOU TO FILL OUT A HAP FORM WHEN THEY HAVE GOT THE RENTAL

    The reason I shouted it at you as again I will reiterate you have no understanding of the rental sector.

    Slava Ukrainii



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