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Why does the Catholic Church still gave control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    ETB schools (primary and secondary) are in many cases catholic schools by the back door anyway. Especially if it merged with a religious ethos school in the past. Even though these are fully state owned schools built on state owned land with state funds.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    You're not making much sense.

    Do fee paying Catholic schools have a rule about how often a family has to have attended mass in order to admit their offspring?

    Private Catholic schools do seem do a better job than their state run counter parts, but private enterprises tend to do a better job than state run ones in general. no doubt, thanks to lack of meddling from politicians, civil servants, public sector unions etc. More power to 'em. You get what you pay for. Unless you pay for it through taxes, of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    So just to be clear, you suggest that the State finance any school run by any patron, as long as the school is non-denominational.

    AFAIK, there are very few, if any non-denominational schools at the moment?

    ETB and ET are multi-denominational.

    I am curious as to who might be the owners/patrons/providers under your suggested model?

    Are you implying that the ETB should become non-denominational?



    I wonder what many parents want? I don't think parents necessarily want a massive change to all schools being non-denom, as if that was the case, we would hear a clamour for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,830 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    I am saying in my opinion the state should not fund religious teaching of any kind. And that state funded schools should not be allowed teach any religion.

    I'm not either expecting this to happen or suggesting anyone is clamouring for it.

    I'm merely offering my opinion on the matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Nice ideology but would cost the tax payers billions



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I don’t disagree, but forcing their hand and any government seen to be going after the Catholic Church ? We might be still one generation away from that happening …



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Can this be extended to modern religions like gender ideology etc?

    For now, for people of all beliefs and none, the religious schools seem to be the ones best placed to oppose enforcing intolerant new ideology in schools.

    Given the signalling from Roderic O'Gorman, he wants big changes soon. You can see this in other countries:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-64811129


    Just for fun, even Star Wars maybe too "problematic" in schools too:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-the-term-jedi-is-problematic-for-describing-programs-that-promote-justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion/



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Starfire20


    crazy that they're is societal resistance to holding an organisation to account that has repeatedly shown it cares more about itself than the welfare of children.

    the rcc puts child rapists on a higher footing than their victims and has demonstrated that repeatedly.

    a previous poster made the analogy that if it was a childcare provider with the same record as the rcc, there would be jail time for those involved and it would be shut down.

    but because it involves a popular mythology, we must make excuses and handle with care.

    shameful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,921 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Of course it matters what the source is - goes to credibility. That’s why you didn’t include the source when you made the claim, because you know as well as they do that it was a complete misrepresentation intended to portray the material in such a way as to suggest it was condoning child sexual abuse. That’s why I said the article is neither promoting atheism nor reason, it’s just using fearmongering rhetoric to promote prejudice. I addressed the points btw - they’re bullshìt.



    Take his word for what? He doesn’t say in that article anyway that he was fired or that he didn’t hire anyone who wasn’t Catholic? In fact he makes a point of how the school was inclusive of all children -

    In our school, I believed that our ethos was the inclusivity which welcomed all children irrespective of creed, background or ability.


    Their being non-religious isn’t a barrier to anyone’s employment in religious ethos schools. Like any employer, religious schools will seek the most suitable candidates for the role. That’s what the religious certificate signifies - that they are qualified to teach, to instruct, to indoctrinate children, in the faith. Far more of an issue when it comes to recruiting is everyone is aware the pay is simply shìte, there’s no disguising that elephant in the room.

    It’s not a strange type of employment, nor is it any way strange that an employer doesn’t pay an employee a wage when the contract is between two employers - the Church which provide education, and the State which provides for education. Were I to use myself as an example - my employer pays my salary, but I’m an employee of dozens of their clients, who are billed for the services provided by my employer. Contract work is standard business practice.

    I get your point, it’s the same point you always make, and that’s why I thought initially you were making a different point this time, I wouldn’t have bothered otherwise. We’ve always been in agreement that our education system is out of step with Irish society, we just disagree on how it should be addressed. The State are responsible for the education system, not the Church, so it’s pointless lying about the Church in the hopes that the State will do anything. It’d be like me claiming that atheists eat babies in the hope that anyone non-religious is suddenly going to join the Church! It’s stupid, and it’s the antithesis of reason. The Church is bad enough without having to exaggerate and lie about it in order to spread misinformation and prejudice based on fearmongering nonsense. That sort of nonsense only renders anyone unable to take the person making the claims seriously, precisely because it’s out of step with their experiences of other people in Irish society who the claims are being made about.

    Substitute the word immigrants for the Church in the same argument above, and you’ll get the point. It’s why anti-immigrant types have no traction whatsoever in this country, and why they feel compelled to lie and exaggerate in order to try and instill fear and resentment of immigrants in Irish society. It’s also why their efforts amount to nothing, precisely because people know from their own experiences of immigrants that their lies are just that. Same thing with people who are religious and those who aren’t - it’s only a vanishingly small number who will try and generate conflict by lying and exaggerating about others who don’t share their ideas, but they get no traction because people know better from their own experiences of the people whom that person is making claims about, people who happen to be their family, friends, neighbours, as opposed to some abstract entity that is any sort of a threat to Irish society.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,982 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Please Google "non-denominational church", learn what the phrase realky means, and then get back to us about whether thats really what you want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    My post made perfect sense, I'm sorry for your troubles.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A majority of parents have said in surveys going back almost 20 years now that they would prefer non-religious patronage schools.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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