Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

Options
1254255257259260403

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 28,353 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If there is some sort of formal event going on with parents and students present then somebody making irrelevant speeches in the middle of it, making his voice heard with strong opinions and generally being a nuisance is unprofessional no matter how you look at it. You can't have a 'one size fits all' rule for appropriate behaviour.

    What is professional behaviour in one situation does not necessarily apply to other situations. Whether or not he was shouting or being abusive is irrelevant, he was behaving inappropriately to an extent that crossed the professional behaviour line, and was dealt with on that basis.

    His subsequent reaction to sanctions at every stage of the proceedings has got him further and further into trouble. He could have dealt with it differently but chose not to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    None of us know exactly what happened at the school function, and all we have to go in is the media reports and descriptions, but it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that the school thought it was serious enough to instigate disciplinary procedures. Maybe the school were wrong? Well, instead of following the well defined procedures to defend himself, he took the insane option of deciding that the entire justice system of the country didn't apply to him.

    The time to make the case that his actions weren't abusive was at the disciplinary hearing, but he decided not to bother with it and shout abuse at the board instead (and we do have video evidence of this).

    He has a second chance to make his case that his actions weren't abusive when his appeal comes up. What are the chances he'll do that? Where would you put your money - on Burke calmly explaining his version of the events that night, and showing that he didn't abuse the principal? Or another put-on performance of victimhood and petulance?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Check the title of the thread, does it limit its scope to actions after his suspension?



  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭GarfieldandPookyBear


    I agree it’s subjective and that is why it’s up to the courts and judges. While someone might jump out with a knife and I might not bat an eyelid, someone else may be terrified. Yes, it’s subjective to an outsider and that is why we often hear in statements “I was in fear for my life”. It enforces how the victim was feeling and the judge will decide if it has merit.

    I really don’t know what words the principal used but Enoch’s actions were sufficient for her to leave the dinner early to get away from him and initiate disciplinary proceedings. I would doubt the details would be revealed in full as there may be references to the child in question and they have to be protected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    Well, we know that if the family thinks they have a solid case they can act calmly and rationally, and are even willing to hire legal counsel to argue their case for them. And we know that in this particular case they have not done so. That seems to speak volumes about how strong they actually think their legal case is.

    We also know what kind of behavior they are perfectly willing to resort to. We've seen repeatedly both in court and at the disciplinary hearing that they are willing to be so publicly abusive that the guards are required to remove them. I certainly consider the behavior shown in both places to be abusive, and with how consistently they act like that I have no problem assuming that his behavior at the church service and dinner were similar. If some people want to pretend like that isn't abuse that's on them.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    What relevance does his actions at the school event(s) actually have on Burkes current situation? They are impossible to prove regardless.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    If it wasn't for his actions after his suspension , it's highly likely none of us would have ever even heard about the issue.

    Had the school issued their guidance about how they wanted staff to interact with the student and Enoch had just followed the dispute/complaints processes available to him , none of us would be here posting about him.

    At every available opportunity Enoch has chosen the overtly confrontational option instead of following the process or policy.

    That is why we're all here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,787 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Brilliant 😂

    It might be advantageous and make a less stressful thread for some if someone who actually knows what they are talking about posted a sticky on this. Explaining the basics, what the case is actually about, etc etc. Looking at you @Quin_Dub

    While we're at it, can someone explain to me where the term transgenderism comes from originally? It screams tosser to me but maybe I have that all wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Ammi for the High Court in May. This family needs to take at long hard look at where they stand.

    Solicitor Ammi Burke’s challenge to WRC unfair dismissal rejection to be heard in May – The Irish Times



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭GarfieldandPookyBear


    Exactly and wasn’t one of Simeon’s charges “threatening and abusive behaviour”? Known as the meeker of the Burke brothers so it’s not that far fetched that Enoch’s behaviour towards his boss would be seen any differently.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Summary of events so far in this case - (As of March 15th)

    • The Parents of a child in the School approached the school and attended a Board of Management meeting to inform them of the situation regarding their child and requested certain accommodations for their child in the school - This included the request to use they/them pronouns and the use of a new name for the Student. The School and BoM agreed to that request.
    • Enoch Burke , along with all the other staff were informed last June of the schools position regarding the student in the school. Instead of raising a formal complaint , Enoch simply began hounding the Principal over email and demanded that the request/instruction be rescinded for all , simply because that's what Enoch wanted.
    • Having had the entire Summer in which to pursue a formal complaint , Enoch again did nothing and simply started back hounded the Principal when school re-opened culminating in the now well documented incident at the public school event.
    • For Clarity, the accusation here is that Enoch interrupted a Church Service celebrating the schools 200th anniversary. He refused to stop the interruption despite being asked to do so and being offered the opportunity to discuss his concerns at a more appropriate time and place.
    • The Church Service finished and the celebrations moved on to a meal. Again Enoch disrupted this event complaining about the "evils of transgenderism" , he was again asked to stop and refused to do so. When the Principal attempted to leave the room to defuse the situation , Enoch is alleged to have followed her around the room continuing his polemics. It is also alleged that other members of staff felt it necessary to physically intervene to allow the Principal to leave the room.
    • Enoch was suspended on full pay pending a disciplinary hearing into his actions at this Public event.
    • Here again , instead of seeking to use the Disciplinary process to have his complaints about the impact to his religious rights heard , Enoch decided to pretend that his suspension did not exist and kept arriving for work and sit in an empty class room all day.
    • He was repeatedly asked to stop and again just ignored everyone and pretended his suspension did not exist.
    • This forced the school to get an injunction to try to stop him from coming to the school causing disruption. The School were granted the injunction.
    • Again Enoch decided to simply pretend that the injunction did not exist and kept on coming to work. This resulted in him going to jail where he remained for 108 days because he refused to accept the reality of his situation.
    • The Judge decided to release him at Christmas because he felt that keeping him in Prison was a waste of everyones time.
    • As soon as the school reopened , Enoch went back to pretending like the previous 6/7 months had not happened and turned up at the school - Sitting on a chair in a corridor being watched by another member of staff.
    • His disciplinary hearing finally took place to the sounds of Enoch and his family loudly chanting nonsense and declaring that none of it was real and that he had done nothing wrong.
    • He was sacked.
    • Again , Enoch decided that nothing had actually happened and continued to try to turn up for work which has now resulted in him being fined €700 per day for as long as he continues to refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Court injunction against him.
    • There is also a potential criminal charge arising from the first day after he was formally fired when Enoch entered the school buildings. He was arrested and released on the day (and went back to the school immediately) and a file has been sent to the DPP for consideration. It is reported that the possible charges relate to offences under the Public Order act.
    • A Court date to review the fines for his breach of the Injunction was deferred by the Judge. Despite this, Enoch and his extended family arrived at court anyway and proceeded to demand to be heard. They had to be escorted from the Courts by security staff.
    • Enoch again returned to Court to have one of his appeals heard by the court of appeal. This did not go well to say the least and resulted in up to 10 Gardai having to physically remove the extended Burke family from the court room.
    • This incident resulted in the arrest of Simeon Burke for his actions/behaviours when he was asked to leave the court-room.
    • Simeon is now on remand in Cloverhill prison because he refused to sign his bail agreement , because he believes that his arrest was invalid. So he is now sitting in jail until the end of the month pending the hearing of the case against him, likely blowing up his legal career as he will now miss all of his final exams.
    • Enoch continues to turn up to school despite the active injunction and also continues to rack up fines for his contempt of court which are now over €30k.
    • There are further pending hearings to review the daily fines and also to review the allocation of costs for the entire case. If the Judge finds against Enoch here he could be facing several hundred thousand euro in accumulated court costs on top of whatever other fines he accrues.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Sigma101


    There are several inaccuracies in these earlier summary points. The staff were informed in May of the school's decision regarding the student's request. The school event (210th anniversary) was in June, before the Summer recess. The disciplinary process was initiated in August, just before the principal departed the school.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Sigma101


    Just to add, it was already clear to all staff that Ms McShane was to leave the school to take up a post in Cork when the event took place. I am speculating that this may have been a factor in triggering Burke's outburst, believing that since she was "out the gaff" she was an easy target and that a disciplinary process was less likely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    There's very few on the thread who share Enoch's views. I'm not one of them.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I believe the email went to all staff on the 8th May 2022, followed by an email reply from Enoch on either 9th or 10th May 2022, challenging the request on various grounds.

    IIRC there was also a meeting between he and the then Principal, sometime later in May, who informed him that the school had obligations to the student under the Equal Status Acts.

    The anniversary mass and dinner was on 21st June.

    It would be interesting to know what (if anything) was said or further meetings happened between the Principal and Enoch in those weeks between the first email, and the anniversary celebrations. I presume Enoch taught classes as normal.

    It seems to me that he bided his time and waited until a public event, in front of staff, parents, pupils / past pupils, to kick off at for maximum impact.

    He was suspended on 22nd August.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭archermoo


    Strongly supporting the idea that the family knew their objection was a non-starter from a legal perspective, so they decided to go with the "scream and shout" show instead. We know they are capable of following the rules calmly when they want to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    As said "Very Few". Insignificant really. Of no great note.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,557 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    They're creepy and they're kooky

    Mysterious and spooky

    They're all together ooky

    The Burke family



  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭GarfieldandPookyBear


    They’re bat sh*t crazy is what they are! 😂





  • Ah here would you listen to yourself the fcuking clown he is decided to announce his objection during a school mass to the entire church causing people to walk out

    he then confronted the principal personally at the post mass dinner which I would not be for a moment doubtful he did that loudly & aggressively. Have you been watching the news? His whole family is loud, aggressive & obnoxious.

    Why anyone thinks burke behaved anything but like a lunatic given the behaviour we’ve seen in court rooms it’s no crazy notion to imagine he’d behave similarly during a school event. He’s an attention seeker. If he wasn’t he’d have met with the principal privately like a professional grown ass man would.

    If I disagree with my boss or think a policy needs changing, I’d arrange a meeting with them or pull them aside if I felt it was urgent, I wouldn’t storm into the kitchen or follow them around the restaurant floor yelling and arguing.

    I bet my last dollar if I was to make an alt account, post in work & jobs that I lost my job because I shouted at my boss over a disagreement we had there’d be not a soul offering the sympathy or devils advocacy I’ve seen in this thread.

    You’re as bad as the little voice in Enoch’s tiny mind that tells him he’s the only one who’s right and everyone else is a heathen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    Agree and just remember the episode in the coroners court in Mayo over the poor girl who died during covid what that family had endure from them, the fan boys of Enochs here stirring the pot here are as big a joke as them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    That really was despicable, I can't even begin to comprehend their thought processes.







  • Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat






  • Honestly like they have such a well documented history by now & not to even imagine what we don’t know about. It’s baffling how he has anyone to play devils advocate for him.

    The family are nutters and frankly it doesn’t matter if he did speak calmly to her or not he was loud enough for others to hear & the fact remains it is not the place for a discussion like that with your boss.

    Mind you of course it wasn’t in fact any kind of discussion it was enoch protesting that he did not wish to be “forced” to breach his religious morals or whatever.

    Must be just trolling at this stage, I really hate to say that cos it’s such a cheap shot these days but you’re either wilfully ignorant or trolling fi you believe he handled the situation well at all even if you don’t believe he was aggressive it was still the most completely arseways form of objecting to workplace policies especially ones ingrained within the schools ethos, anti bullying policy, etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭GarfieldandPookyBear


    That was just unforgivable! Those poor parents, I can’t even imagine. 😔



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Should he have been suspended? Coming from an employment rights angle. Pretend he didn’t do everything he’s done since the moment he was suspended.

    I don’t have an opinion on it because I don’t know anything about his contract or the schools rules, but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had he followed the process as it was set out. It may have set somewhat of a precedent for schools and workplaces in general regarding the use of pronouns.



Advertisement