"Green" policies are destroying this country

16-03-2023 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366497#Comment_120366497

Personally I think if you're talking about 50k to retrofit versus 250k+ to rebuild, then retrofitting makes sense if the aim is to bring a building up to zero/low emission standards

If you don't wish to retrofit your home, nobody is forcing you to

If you do, there are grants to be availed of or in some cases full costs covered for lower income/council houses. Hopefully there is opportunities to increase funding at this end to widen the scope of who qualifies

I moved from, what I thought was a well insulated apartment, to my current place which is a B3 and my god, the difference in comfort and bills is night and day. I dread to think how much I would be spending if I was still in that apartment. So, talking from personal experience, I can absolutely see the benefits and hope to get this place to an even higher rating in time

ps200306 · 16-03-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366541#Comment_120366541

Personally I think if you're talking about 50k to retrofit versus 250k+ to rebuild, then retrofitting makes sense if the aim is to bring a building up to zero/low emission standards

On the other hand, if the aim is just to keep yourself warm and you are of an age where the return on investment timeline doesn't stack up, it makes no sense at all.

If you don't wish to retrofit your home, nobody is forcing you to

You left out the word "yet". Ryan is quite adamant that new fossil fuel boilers in existing homes will be illegal at some stage.

If you do, there are grants to be availed of or in some cases full costs covered for lower income/council houses. Hopefully there is opportunities to increase funding at this end to widen the scope of who qualifies

Spending other people's money rather than your own doesn't make it any less daft.

So, talking from personal experience, I can absolutely see the benefits...

You didn't spend 50k on it though, did you?

ps200306 · 16-03-2023 5:38pm

More on the dubious practice of weather event attribution:

https://open.substack.com/pub/rogerpielkejr/p/how-to-be-a-smart-consumer-of-climate

16-03-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366855#Comment_120366855

Not sure why you seem to be against upgrades for those on lower incomes or the council housing stock. To me it makes a lot of sense as folks that fall into those categories would be the ones most at risk of fuel poverty.

You are annoyed about the costs, yet also annoyed where those costs are either fully or partially covered.

Hard to know what way you want to approach building upgrades that makes sense in any sort of a reasonable time frame. Maybe you could clarify the approach you think would be best to achieve lower emissions from buildings

ps200306 · 16-03-2023 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366908#Comment_120366908

I know you have a hard time comprehending stuff you don't want to hear, but I already made my point several posts ago: replace the housing stock at the "natural" rate of 2% a year. I presume it filtered through to you at some level since you introduce the spurious phrase "any sort of a reasonable time frame". If you think 50-70 years is not a reasonable time frame, feel free to make your case.

ps200306 · 16-03-2023 6:02pm

More on that EU failure to overhaul energy markets from the Biz Post -- it's abundantly clear the EU knows that renewables have no possibility of standing on their own feet commercially without help from a severely tilted playing field:

The EU’s electricity market “not doing justice to consumers anymore”

Revealed: EU electricity market reform steps back from radical overhaul

The EU is to step back from major reforms of the electricity market which had been signalled over the last year, according to the draft of a plan to be launched by the European Commission this week. The commission will instead propose a range of interventions that amount to a tweaking of the bloc’s electricity market, rather than the major reform which had been expected, according to a draft document seen by the Business Post.

A draft of the proposal by the European Commission for “improving the EU’s electricity market” does not contain an overhaul of the electricity market’s “merit order”, which results in overall electricity prices being dictated by the price of gas. In her State of the Union address in September of last year, Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, said that the EU’s electricity market design based on the merit order was “not doing justice to consumers anymore” and that “we have to decouple the dominant influence of gas on the price of electricity”. She said, “This is why we will do a deep and comprehensive reform of the electricity market.”

But instead of directly addressing the role of the merit order on electricity prices, the commission’s proposed reforms will focus on creating a “buffer between short-term markets and electricity bills paid by consumers” by incentivising longer term contracting, as well as new incentives for battery storage and demand response. The entire 50-page document does not mention the merit order once.

Spain and France had been pushing for this decoupling of prices between fossil fuels and renewables, but Germany and the Netherlands had expressed serious concerns with such a move. There had also been concerns expressed from those in the renewables industry that removing the merit order or decoupling renewables and fossil fuels could have serious unintended consequences on investment into the renewables sector.

The commission’s proposal tellingly says that while its intention is for “consumers to benefit from more fixed priced contracts” it also wanted to facilitate “investments in clean technologies”. In contrast to von der Leyen’s comments, the new document says that the current market is “well-integrated”.

16-03-2023 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366926#Comment_120366926

Yeah I saw you mention that but didn't think you were serious about leaving it that long.

In terms of the efforts to reduce emissions, that time frame is, well, farcical. Thankfully the time frames being aimed for are far shorter than you suggest. That low level of ambition is a major contributor to the situation we now find ourselves in i.e a lot of the housing stock being poorly insulated and requiring a silly amount of fossil fuels to keep warm.

Even the current targets are underwhelming if I'm honest but I'm pragmatic about the resources available to do it quicker.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-03-2023 8:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364830#Comment_120364830

Unless there is a specific local by-law it's unlikely they even had to trim the trees.

https://www.treecouncil.ie/trees-and-the-law

A right to light exists only if the owner of a house can satisfy a court that he or she has enjoyed the uninterrupted use of that light for a period of greater than 20 years before any legal action is brought about.

This, however, only applies to the windows of a property and not to a garden.

Larbre34 · 16-03-2023 10:35pm

Happy St. Patrick's Eve everybody.

Time to pour a nice glass of Jameson over ice and raise a toast to Dutch Farmers.

ednwireland · 16-03-2023 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367883#Comment_120367883

oops drinking duty free Bushmills 😜

worked 3 weeks straight so need a break this weekend

ps200306 · 17-03-2023 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367230#Comment_120367230

Yeah I saw you mention that but didn't think you were serious about leaving it that long. In terms of the efforts to reduce emissions, that time frame is, well, farcical.

Farcical, why? Explain to me exactly what difference having all Irish homes insulated by, say, 2035 instead of 2080 will make to climate change?

That low level of ambition is a major contributor to the situation we now find ourselves in i.e a lot of the housing stock being poorly insulated and requiring a silly amount of fossil fuels to keep warm.

Is it not, rather, the fact that most of the housing stock was built before 1990? I can't imagine, for instance, that the house I live in is poorly insulated because of some builder's lack of ambition about climate change in 1950. It's been dramatically improved compared to when there used to be frost on the inside of the window panes, but it is never going to be economical to insulate to B or A standards because of basic construction features.

Even the current targets are underwhelming if I'm honest but I'm pragmatic about the resources available to do it quicker.

Whereas I would say:

Even the current targets won't be met because the schemes are a shambles like many public policy efforts in this country,
That's probably a good thing since they are a waste of resources that would be better spent elsewhere.

Case in point: I got 700 quid from SEAI for updating my heating controls. That's 700 quid that taxpayers shelled out to me so that I could tell Alexa to boost the hot water without getting up off my ass. I got a further 500 from Electric Ireland in residential deemed credits under the Energy Efficiency Obligation scheme for installing a new condensing boiler. Between them they covered 40% of a total job which a) I would have had to do anyway, grant or not, b) made no practical difference to my energy efficiency, c) was money that I absolutely didn't need from the taxpayer as I am extremely comfortably off. It's bad enough having the State hemorrhaging money for Green boondoggles, but giving it to the people who least need it as well!

antoinolachtnai · 17-03-2023 9:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366943#Comment_120366943

De-coupling is the proposal that renewables should be sold at a cheaper price than fossil-based electricity being delivered at the same time.

That would mean that renewables would be providing a subsidy.

17-03-2023 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368209#Comment_120368209

As I said, your option lacks ambition and while it was the prevailing option for many years, times have changed.

Many buildings, regardless of age, can have work done to improve energy efficiency ratings, even ones several hundred years old

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/03/16/york-minster-pompeii-the-vatican-how-heritage-sites-are-discreetly-making-solar-power

As for the viability of upgrading a building, thats a decision for the owners

Take for example a house built in the 1950's:

someone only planning to be in a house for a few short years may not see the benefit of upgrades
a young couple in their first house which they plan to keep for 20 years would see if differently

Just a matter of perspective.

17-03-2023 10:17am

Given the increased focus on educating people on climate change, its impacts and causes, I wonder will we see something like this coming to RTE and the Met Eireann weather forecasts

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/03/16/french-tv-stations-are-adding-climate-change-context-to-their-weather-forecasts

Weather bulletins on two French TV channels - France 2 and France 3 - will be transformed from Monday into "weather and climate bulletins".

It is meant to better explain the consequences of climate change on the weather, France Télévisions told AFP.

The aim is "to explain the weather differently, not just to say: 'It's going to be sunny tomorrow or it's going to rain', but to explain why," the public group's news director, Alexandre Kara, told AFP.

Furze99 · 17-03-2023 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368780#Comment_120368780

"Many buildings, regardless of age, can have work done to improve energy efficiency ratings, even ones several hundred years old"

Yes.. where these buildings are owned by the state/ local authorities etc. I've seen some excellent work but these bodies have DEEP pockets, funded from taxes.

If you're filthy rich and interested in heritage architecture and so on you could fund this type of work. But ordinary mortals with normal assets can only make modest improvements to old housing stock.

17-03-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368887#Comment_120368887

Which is why there are grants

Some posters seem to be opposed to the idea of grants though 🤷‍♂️

Responses to the retrofit program are funny though, opponents can't even agree on what they don't like about it

The grants are too small
The grants are too big
There are not enough grants
There are too many grants
There should be no free upgrades
There should only be free upgrades
The govt should cover all the costs
No govt funding should be used to cover any costs
Only new homes should have requirements for low energy consumption
New homes should not have requirements for low energy consumption

Funny stuff

JRant · 17-03-2023 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368693#Comment_120368693

But they already get first dibs on the market with only the most expensive fuel in the mix setting the price, even if it only makes up a small percentage of the overall supply.

What we have now is a subsidy for renewables paid for by the consumer.

antoinolachtnai · 17-03-2023 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120369007#Comment_120369007

That is how wholesale spot markets in commodities work. The cost of the most expensive supply required to meet the demand sets the price. Which wholesale spot market works differently?

And this is all the wholesale markets you are talking about.

In the retail market, which is what people care about, consumers are receiving a payment from the renewables market during times of high fossil fuel prices, through the PSO payment.

Furze99 · 17-03-2023 6:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368930#Comment_120368930

Go look at some of the self build type groups on the likes of FB. Plenty first hand reports out there from the sort of people who would benefit from grants to the effect that they're not worth applying for. Little use to the sort of people who actually think Green.

Furze99 · 18-03-2023 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368930#Comment_120368930

Here we go, a typical very recent query from people trying to do the Green thing and renovate old buildings:

Q - "Hi All. I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience with the new derelict house renovation grant? I've applied for it, but they came back looking for a letter of exemption from planning permission. According to what I read, any house that hasn't been lived in for a while actually needs planning permission just to start living in it again, much less be derelict. So does this mean I've to go through the whole planning process to avail of this grant? Is there different planning for a renovation than for a new build?"

A - "We are applying for it at the moment and it's is some headache with plenty of hoops to jump through, engineer's report, tax clearance and a string or more bits and bobs. We have also put in for planning and putting on a extension and new septic tank as the house was built before planning was a thing. We had this before we applied for the grant. They have now came back saying we will need to sell our existing home that we currently live in to be able to receive the grant when we are finished the new build. That is a bit mad"

"We where not aware at the start that we needed to sell the apartment we own but this isn't a problem as we didn't plan on keeping it. We are in need of a house as our family is growing and we have other needs for health reasons that the appointment does not suit us. The house we are doing for our own needs amd our forever home so we don't see it as a problem but to get the grant they don't make it easy to get. To be honest if it was me on my own applying I'd have given up but it's my wife doing all the work on it."

"You can get either the derelict or the vacant grant alongside an SEAI grant. Unfortunately it's wise to understand clearly what the property needs as the SEAI one stop shop grants have conditions that are largely unsuitable for old buildings. Some of the individual SEAI grants can be useful but bear in mind they can put up the price of the work by about the amount of the grant..."

etc etc

18-03-2023 4:53pm

Some of the opportunities and challenges with using hydrogen fuel in jet engines. At least one of the biggest challenges, sourcing of green hydrogen in sufficient qty's, will dissipate over time as more and more production is brought online

https://youtu.be/BIUfiZJiPbM

18-03-2023 5:50pm

Harry's Garage, a Youtube channel, visited JCB headquarters 2 years ago when they had just started work on using hydrogen as a fuel source for their heavy machinery.

He's just released another video where's he's gone back to view progress and its astounding how far they've come.

The original video from Jul 2021

https://youtu.be/19Q7nAYjAJY

The new video

https://youtu.be/jxtxZY45RMM

Some key developments

The first engines were modified diesels. The current versions are built from inception for hydrogen
They are now at the point of being able to build it on the same production lines as the diesel engines.
They have working prototypes in functioning engines and current prototypes are just going through final tweaks but are almost production ready.
In terms of maintenance, they made the point that anyone who could service a diesel engine, could service these engines. Service intervals etc would remain the same, but there would be different lubricants etc
In terms of torque and revs, there is no difference to the existing diesel offerings
Emissions
- Nox emissions are not an issue as the temperatures don't get hot enough to create it (don't understand this bit myself, any science nerds in the house want to explain)
- No carbon emissions
- No particulate emissions
- Only exhausting steam
Still have some field testing to do to test in various environments (cold/hot/high & low humidity etc)
They are still doing dev work on diesels but foresee the market changing rapidly over to hydrogen as emission regulations get stricter and hydrogen fuel becomes more readily available
In terms of upgrading existing machinery, retrofitting an existing diesel wouldn't be a good option (not impossible though) but repowering (full engine replacement) would be the better option

The missing piece is now the fuel source, but it looks like they are more or less ready to start rolling this out

Pa ElGrande · 18-03-2023 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373121#Comment_120373121

Water. You will need lots of it.

Green hydrogen is produced by taking renewable power, high purity water and converting to hydrogen and oxygen gas via electrolysis. The water requirement for green hydrogen is stoichiometrically 9 L of H2O per kg of H2 produced. This is higher than for natural gas reforming, where some hydrogen is already present in the feedstock (mainly CH4). In addition, commonly overlooked water supply and disposal factors include:

Significant cooling load for electrolysers – which can require additional 30 to 40 kg of water per kg of hydrogen for makeup in evaporative cooled systems. Over time, the stack efficiency of the electrolyser decreases, and most of the efficiency losses report to additional heating of the stack; with the result that the cooling load increases significantly over the lifetime of the stack (typically 8 to 10 years of operational time). The cooling demand for the electrolyser can typically increase by 40 to 70% from beginning of life to end of stack life.

Other cooling loads – such as the multi-stage compressors with intercooling to compress the produced hydrogen to a suitable pressure for storage or use.

Raw water feed requiring treatment to meet high purity electrolyser requirements – with around 20-40% of the water sent to waste during the treatment process, depending on the quality of the imported raw water.

Water disposal – due to the increased concentration of feedwater impurities into the waste streams this water can often not be discharged to the environment and requires connection to a waste treatment facility or onsite treatment or disposal.

roosterman71 · 18-03-2023 6:34pm

BMW had a demo day lately too with a hydrogen x5. I think only them and Toyota are doing any serious research and investment in hydrogen. As you say, the fuel itself is going to be the barrier where it's rare to source it and it's expensive to produce. Doesn't need a lot of power to generate hydrogen? Could be wrong there.

If Hydrogen fuel and engines does get a bit of traction and look viable, it will be interesting to see if governments put the money in for the infrastructure and incentives to buy as they did with EVs. My money is they won't.

18-03-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373547#Comment_120373547

Govts around the world are ramping up on hydrogen production with a view to using it as a storage medium as well as for transportation.

I can see it being used for heavy plant machinery and probably trucking. Potentially for air travel too but more to do in that area. I know Airbus have announced inhouse development of a hydrogen fuel cell engine and Rolls Royce are developing a hydrogen combustion engine

Maybe I'm wrong but I think the horse has bolted in terms of hydrogen cars

roosterman71 · 18-03-2023 7:12pm

OK. That's interesting. Heavy machinery need an alternative to batteries. They simply aren't fit for purpose.

evolvingtipperary101 · 19-03-2023 1:33pm

https://twitter.com/ActingTheGom/status/1633937661663535105?s=20

this made me chuckle.

ps200306 · 19-03-2023 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368930#Comment_120368930

Perhaps you would be less confused if you answered the question I posed in response to this:

Yeah I saw you mention that but didn't think you were serious about leaving it that long. In terms of the efforts to reduce emissions, that time frame is, well, farcical.

Farcical, why? Explain to me exactly what difference having all Irish homes insulated by, say, 2035 instead of 2080 will make to climate change?

19-03-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376149#Comment_120376149

Explain to me exactly what difference having all Irish homes insulated by, say, 2035 instead of 2080 will make to climate change?

If that really needs to be explained then the answer is unlikely to be comprehended and/or accepted

ps200306 · 20-03-2023 3:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376557#Comment_120376557

"Explain to me exactly what difference having all Irish homes insulated by, say, 2035 instead of 2080 will make to climate change?"

If that really needs to be explained then the answer is unlikely to be comprehended and/or accepted

There is only one correct answer: insulating Irish homes in 2035 instead of 2080 will make zero difference to climate change, just as cutting the entirety of Irish emissions to zero will make zero difference to climate change. I was less interested in your answer (since if it's different from the above, it's wrong) than in whether you were willing to put one forward at all. Clearly you're not, and I understand why -- it would be too embarrassing / indefensible, even for you.

I'm still interested in why otherwise intelligent people become attached to such illogical ideas, but my working assumption has been that it's akin to getting sucked in by a cult. I'd be happy to listen to your side of it.

"Green" policies are destroying this country

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