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Is this a valid acceptable reason to end a tenancy?

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  • 17-03-2023 4:13pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    My brother and his partner are planning major construction work on their house. It will be gutted and the builder is advising that when the work starts they will have to live elsewhere during the work.

    I have a rented house that I was considering selling some time so I'm wondering can I serve the tenant notice to allow my brother and partner use it and then sell it when the construction work is finished.

    Is this allowed? They are only in the planning stage so it could be next spring.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭dennyk


    Yes, your brother needing to move into the property is one of the valid reasons for terminating a Part 4 tenancy (for now). Just make certain you follow all of the notice requirements to the letter, or else your notice may be deemed invalid and you might end up having to start the whole process over again, significantly extending the time your tenant can remain in the property.

    You would have to offer the property back to the previous tenant if it were to become available to rent again within 12 months of the termination date, but if you don't rent out the property again and decide to sell it instead, that wouldn't be required.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks dennyk. It will be a genuine reason because they are ripping his place apart Dermot Bannon style and the builder is even relocating the sewerage system.

    One thing has me puzzled though. I need to give a declaration saying the house needs to be used by my brother for lets say 1/1/24-31/12/24. What happens if I need to spend some of 2024 fighting to gain possession. I can't really write indefinitely on the declaration because it may be 9 months or it may be 18 months depending on numerous factors. Thanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    On the Notice of Termination that you need to serve to the tenant, you need to declare your reason for ending the tenancy along with the other required information. You do not need to declare when or how long your brother needs the house for. You need to look at the RTB website.

    https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Where a landlord requires the property for their own use or for use by a family member, a Statutory Declaration must accompany the Notice of Termination confirming the intended occupant's identity and (if not the landlord) their relationship to the landlord and the expected duration of the occupation. The Statutory Declaration must also confirm that the landlord is required to offer a tenancy to the tenant if the dwelling is vacated within a period of 12 months from the termination date.  



  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    ah yes...I need to read that site myself!...There seems to be similar but different information or with some information omitted on multiple pages.


    As regards your original question, surely then you'll just specify a duration that will well cover the actual period your brother needs the property for? There's no penalty for him ending his occupancy early.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    I am wondering what happens if half or all of this time is used on RTB hearings etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison


    I think it's a terrible thing to do to a standing tenant.

    I do understand the reasons for doing it but I think your brother should be doing his own thing.

    If your tenant is or has caused no issues then I wouldn't be bothering them!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    As far as I know, you need to offer it to a previous tenant only, if they requested it in 28 days after receiving the notice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    The OP has stated they also want to sell. They are perfectly within their rights to dispose of an asset when they want to.

    Helping out their brother has just brought the decision forward.

    Private renting is not a house for life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks for your comment. I am planning to sell at some stage any way and I know the tenant is not interested in buying.

    To be fair I'm trying to do things within what's allowed hence the reason I'm asking. If it's not allowed I'd accept this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    I have asked on a number of occasions if the tenant plans to purchase any time but the reply has always been negative.

    I would have enormous evidence to back up the genuine reason for ending the tenancy if I needed it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    RTB hearings?? You're expecting the current tenant to over-hold?



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    It's your property you can serve notice as per the lease, having family use as a reason is probably much better than selling at the moment because they are introducing more and more red tape to prevent people selling. I'd absolutely get legal advice from a solicitor in issuing the notice, it is well worth the money spent to hopefully avoid issues.

    You are not personally responsible for housing tenants outside of the terms of the lease you signed, any suggestions that this is a terrible thing to do are completely out of order. I would avoid any discussion of offering to sell the place to the tenants, anything you say or do will just be used against you in the system, it is completely one sided.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    I don't really get the whole thing about a property being potentially offered to a tenant, surely that option is open to them when the property is put up for sale anyway? ie anyone can bid on it?? What it suggests to me is that the tenant (generally, not just this tenant, but any tenant) is being told they are the only buyer, it could limit (would very likely limit) what an owner could achieve in price for their property? I understand that a tenant or tenants could be told the property is going for sale and they are invited to make bids, but if they are presently in the property, it runs the risk that it will undermine other bidders, specifically if the tenant loses out, where they then could refuse to leave the property.

    If anything, measures to remove tenants should be strengthened especially where a tenant has been given the correct notice (no gaming the system for typographical errors AND where a tenant has stopped paying rent OR cant pay and wont meet to make arrangements to pay or explain the situation/how it can be rectified. I had this situation where a tenant offered to buy my rental property, and when I told them the starting price the agent was giving me, they scoffed/baulked at the idea, their opinion was one that I was trying to screw them over, when in reality I was offering it to the market to see what it could achieve.

    Id be all for having some kind of controls (some measures that reflect inflation and overall prices in an area and for the same properties nationally) where it is applied across the board for all private and principal homes/residences because imo substantial price increases dont favour sellers where they only end up paying substantial increases when buying. OR at the least a more transparent purchase system with protections for buyers, The idea a selling agent can just keep asking for any amount is ridiculous and no protection for a buyer to know if they are even bidding against a real person (someone will come along and argue that protections exist, but they appear to be self monitored. The only way to ensure any system is accurate and honest is to have independent confirmation, equally the idea of a seller being limited to just one buyer is ridiculous too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Well it's quite possible given the current housing situation. Would you not agree?



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    I second this, absolutely get a solicitor to draft the letter and advice, money well spent and could sacpve you a fortune in the long run



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,154 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    I think that poster was referring to the fact that if the property is not in fact sold, and is going to be rented again, the previous tenant must be given first refusal.

    Nothing to do with having to offer it to them if selling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks for your reply. I will make sure to do this. Do you have any idea what this might cost?



  • Registered Users Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison


    I'm not suggesting that you are wrong in doing what you are doing but I just wouldn't agree with what you are doing!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,365 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    "I can't really write indefinitely on the declaration because it may be 9 months or it may be 18 months depending on numerous factors." - you're renovating a house, not building a metro.



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    No-one asked you!


    Edit:

    OP only asked if it was allowable.

    Not for your moral judgement - and you have no knowledge of OP's personal circumstances so you are in no position to judge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Yes some people may see it as unfair but I do intend to sell at some stage and I know the tenant is not interested in purchasing.

    It would be a major help to family and if I'm correct the government will have a responsibility to find accommodation for the tenant if they can't or won't find a solution. My brother won't have this guarantee.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    Marie197612:03 pm

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372365#Comment_120372365

    I have asked on a number of occasions if the tenant plans to purchase any time but the reply has always been negative.

    I would have enormous evidence to back up the genuine reason for ending the tenancy if I needed it.


    I replied to this post where the poster is stating they asked the tenant if they intended to purchase and they dont intend to going by the OPs reply. My own reply to their post/quote is very clearly in my post/references it. Also, it was another poster/s that highlighted that the original tenant must be given first refusal, IF it was being re-let within 12 months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Marie didn't buy a house to provide accommodation for life to her tennant. Did you Oscar buy a house to provide housing for life to a stranger??

    When do people will understand that!! The owner of an asset should be in their right to do what they seem fit with their asset.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Yes it does happen some renovations to take longer than expected don't you think? Or are you a builder and know different.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    I suppose it's highlighting the fact to the tenant that they are thinking of selling. If the tenant wanted first refusal also gives the tenant a fairly informal heads up that the landlord plans on selling in the short-medium term timeframe.

    If I was a tenant and landlord came to me asking if I wanted to buy the property, I'd be thinking that the writings on the wall here and sooner or later I'll be moving/given notice. Or I love this house let's see how much I can save and start talking to the bank regarding mortgages etc. I know lots of people who bought their house off the landlord.

    So the tenant can't say they've been blindsided with this information and it's all out of the blue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    I'm not sure I get your point. I don't know what to put as the expected during. If the builder says 6 months and I write this down what happens if this time is lost with RTB processes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Well I know we had work done ourselves before and after being promised a two month lead time it was over four months before the contractor showed up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    I think you might be overthinking this abit.

    Your brother will have an agreed start date with the builder. This is your guide. If it changes and the builder is a month behind or whatever that's beyond your control.

    So depending on your circumstances if you can afford the mortgage without rent. I would probably have their moving out date a month or two before your brother needs it....this gives you wiggle room to clean the house , get rid of unwanted furniture. Allows your brother time to move into the house rather than everything going down to the wire.

    It also means you will know 100% the tenants are gone.

    If they do decide to overhold it will put your brother into a stressful position in finding a place to stay.... personal items into storage etc. If they know a month or two in advance that the tenant is overholding it will make things less stressful than finding out last minute.



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