Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 8:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374698#Comment_120374698

What was the atmosphere like? Sounded poor for a lot of it? Edit read your response to someone else. Maybe the TV sound was turned down for crowd noise.

pc7 · 19-03-2023 8:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374795#Comment_120374795

I was east too cristo and thought it was as almost as good as NZ win which was best I’ve ever had.

JRant · 19-03-2023 9:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375086#Comment_120375086

You have to factor in the incompetence of Virgin media when discussing the sound quality. They have form for getting the sound mix all wrong. The crowd noise was damped down way too much and McIntyres mic was dialled up way too high. The usual from them.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375097#Comment_120375097

Yeah I just edited my last post to say that it coulda been a TV issue haha.

walshb · 19-03-2023 9:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374749#Comment_120374749

So, a GS is meaningless to you, and only a WC championship trophy counts?

19-03-2023 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375032#Comment_120375032

I said this earlier , so many complaints about how England played and the ref, I just think any other fan base would be so happy with what they have achieved that they wouldn’t really care about a couple of decisions.

Every game thread this tournament has been full of complaints about the refs and the other teams style. I saw some complaints about the scrum penalties yesterday but it was clear as day Ireland we’re turning in wheeling the scrum, that’s not the ref riding you, just giving the correct decision.

just appreciate what you have done, it’s been hugely impressive and you feel there’s more to come ( very difficult draw admittedly).

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375114#Comment_120375114

Nah people love complaining about officiating , I am often one of them. Any other fanbase would have the exact same section of fans.

19-03-2023 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374705#Comment_120374705

It’s a very difficult one, I’m in no way downplaying the importance of head injuries, that’s has to take precedent over everything else.

Its so hard in a game like rugby with the speed and intensity though to get these calls right, you’re going to be in a position soon where multiple players could be sent off each match or alternatively the game will have to be played in a different way. I like the 20 minute yellow they have in super rugby for those borderline calls but I concede it’s not an easy one for refs at all.

19-03-2023 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375126#Comment_120375126

Fair enough, I love complaining as much as the next person but don’t think I would care too much if I were in your shoes today!

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 9:26am

I'm really disappointed to read quite a significant number of people trying to mitigate for Freddie Stewart's actions.

If he used that split second to open up his arms and attempt to tackle Keenan (like most amateur and professional players would have done), instead of turning his body in the way that he did, he would have stayed on the pitch.

Actions have consequences. Stewart knew exactly what he was doing by turning his body like that.

stephen_n · 19-03-2023 9:28am

My only complaint about the officiating team yesterday was the offside. England brought great line speed but were constantly off side. Unless someone changed the last foot rule and forgot to mention it.

It’s amazing how Englands discipline improved after the red. 10 penalties prior to Red card and only 3 after.

Buddy Bubs · 19-03-2023 9:37am

Rugby has a massive problem with red cards these days. So easy to get one, even accidentally bring clumsy while fatigued. I suppose composure could be seen as a skill in itself. But so many big games effectively decides early with sending off. That said, I do believe Ireland would have won yesterday 15 v 15

Former Former Former · 19-03-2023 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375164#Comment_120375164

Rugby has a massive problem with red cards these days

Rugby has an even bigger problem with head injuries and lawsuits.

Red cards don't ruin games, it's the muppets who still think it's OK to hit a guy like that who ruin games. It's mildly depressing how slow they are on the uptake. Steward wasn't fatigued, he saw a chance to soften a guy up and he went for it.

But there's no going back on this. We can't.

BTW, Ireland got through the entire tournament without a single card. It can be done.

walshb · 19-03-2023 9:45am

The slagging of the rules and how professional officials read/interpret and enforce them is tiresome.

aloooof · 19-03-2023 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375148#Comment_120375148

I think that’s really harsh on Stewart tbh.

It was a split second, and while I completely understand the red, to me it looked like it was a natural reaction, bracing himself.

Brewster · 19-03-2023 9:54am

Fantastic day and win. Was my third time seeing us win the lot in person, I can’t imagine there are too many that have seen all four! Look the red card was harsh, I think we would have found a way to win anyway, but this made it easier. If roles were reversed, I can imagine the reaction would be a little different. It was unfortunate for Hugo, one of our players of tournament, but this was a rugby collision in my view, perhaps a yellow, but never a red. The incident later in game warranted a red more in my view.

Augme · 19-03-2023 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375148#Comment_120375148

Anyone who thinks he did it to injure Keenan is living in fantasy land, or just some irrational hatred of English people land. A bizarre take on the incident tbh.

aloooof · 19-03-2023 10:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375164#Comment_120375164

Discipline absolutely is a skill.

In the 2021 6 Nations, Ireland picked up 2 red cards for the first time. Since then their discipline has been brilliant.

In 21 Tests since, we’ve had 2 yellow cards.

I make it that our opponents have had 16 yellows and 7 reds.

That’s too stark a difference to put down to clumsiness and fatigue.

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375183#Comment_120375183

Find me a rugby player whose 'natural reaction' when a player is running at them is to turn their body and lead with the elbow.

He didn't even try to wrap his arms, which any rugby player no matter the level they're playing at would do. That's the natural reaction of a rugby player, not turning your body so you're leading with your elbow.

I'm sorry, lads, but it's absolute nonsense to suggest the red is in any way harsh. All day, everyday. There were so many other things Stewart could have done in that situation but he ultimately chose to show his elbow and it hit Keenan's head.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375213#Comment_120375213

I'm sure he never meant for Keenan to go off for a HIA and not return to the game, but stupid actions have consequences and he knew what he was doing by turning his body like that.

aloooof · 19-03-2023 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375226#Comment_120375226

Here’s Rob Kearney’s take on it. I’d be pretty close to this tbh

https://twitter.com/vmsportie/status/1637153883070898178?s=46&t=2Uqle88QLSZ4sC3imgieyQ

pickarooney · 19-03-2023 10:12am

The only place, IRL or on the internet I've seen anyone claim Steward's actions were deliberate and a clear red is boards. Absolutely everyone I've spoken to or whose opinions I've read think it was a really harsh call, a penalty at best, unavoidable, unfortunate, a rugby incident or 'I suppose a red if you apply the laws to the letter but the law is inflexible and not adapted to real life situations'. Peyper himself seemed to be of the latter opinion going by his placatory attitude in giving the card.

On a positive note, nobody accused the ref of cheating or corruption over the incident.

Brewster · 19-03-2023 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375226#Comment_120375226

Nonsense, there is a player running at him at pace, he doesn’t open up his arms and embrace the tackle, he would have got smashed and hurt himself potentially. Stewart’s reaction is a defensive brace position waiting for someone to hit him. Just think about your body would move if something was approaching you at pace, you’d turn sideways and brace yourself. It was an unfortunate incident, but never a red card.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375233#Comment_120375233

Yeah I got lambasted for saying the red "looked harsh" lol

farmerval · 19-03-2023 10:27am

One thing yesterday and particularly after the red card I thought Ireland were trying to force the game too much. When we possibly needed just to play rugby and string phases together and stretch and already panting England, we were trying to play through tight spaces in the middle. Actually we rarely played the ball through the hands into the wide channels. I know England's rush defence had a say in that but we never stood off a little or chipped over the rush.

On the red card, the oncoming train of litigation along with the appalling images from so many games of players concussed may finish rugby as a sport. The huge driver despite the image of pushy Daddy's is often pushy mammy's ferrying kids here there and everywhere to further their prospects in sport. When kids are 6,7,8 10 their playing loads of sports and the ones who'll make it in one sport could quite likely make it in several others. If rugby cannot sort the issues that lead to concussions it may not continue as a sport.

There is absolutely no industry or company that would allow it's employees face such danger on a regular basis. Any such industry or profession would be shut down immediately.

What if one of the current Irish Team in ten years time can't remember winning the grand slam. Little consolation being at a 25 year anniversary weekend if you can't remember any of it. Offhand have 3? Irish players had concussions over the last 7-8 weeks?

Rugby has to do whatever it takes to sort this issue. The incredible conditioning of the players and the immense physicality of modern rugby has turned rugby into an incredibly physical contest.

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375255#Comment_120375255

So if someone is running at you on a rugby pitch, you don't tackle them? You show them your shoulder or your elbow instead?

That's a new one for me.

walshb · 19-03-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375233#Comment_120375233

Not sure anyone claiming he wanted to inflict injury and that there was malice. As per game rules it was a red. End of. Players shouldn’t be allowed away with these incidents based off their poor judgment calls. How on earth would the game be officiated with this attitude?’

clsmooth · 19-03-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375152#Comment_120375152

If that stat is true it’s very interesting. People tend to think once they lose a man their team has no chance but I’ve always felt it means the 14 man team will get reffed a bit more sympathetically after especially if it’s a red where there’s no intent to harm. It’s human nature as opposed to any conscious bias.

aloooof · 19-03-2023 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375264#Comment_120375264

You don’t tackle them unless they have the ball. Keenan collected the ball a fraction of a second before contact.

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 10:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375230#Comment_120375230

I couldn't care what Rob Kearney's take on it is. Ex-professionals far and wide are constantly trying to mitigate against blows to the head because it was what was happening in their day and you just got on with it.

However, let's take what Kearney says on its merits. Freddie Stewart has committed himself to a tackle and then at the last second has tried to recklessly back out of it by turning his body. His actions resulted in a player leaving the field for the entire game with a head injury. He was bolt upright, he turned his body and his elbow hit Keenan's head. That is a red card. Stewart showed zero duty of care in his actions. Tough sh*t.

Augme · 19-03-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375226#Comment_120375226

Basically every rugby players natural reaction is to turn and potentially brace for impact when a player is running at them without the ball. It happenes every time in a kick and chase situation for example. Keenan gaining possession of the ball a split second before the collision has made the situation. Its rugby though, sometimes you just can't account for the bounce of a ball.

Under the laws it probably is a red card, but the laws are flawed. World rugby need to take a long hard think about where they want the game to go and what are they trying to achieve. Its a contact sport, people will get head injuries. It happens in almost everyone other sport.

Again, I've not seen anyone outside of Irish people who think yesterday's decision being s red is good for the sport and the position that should be place long term.

aloooof · 19-03-2023 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375285#Comment_120375285

However, let's take what Kearney says on its merits. Freddie Stewart has committed himself to a tackle…

That’s literally not at all what Kearney said...

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375275#Comment_120375275

Actually no, because if the ball is lost in that split second then that mitigation is taken into account on the basis of Stewart is already committed to the tackle.

If Stewart makes the tackle he's already committed to then this conversation never happens. He chose to show his elbow and it hit Keenan in the head. Thems the breaks, but the duty of care is on him and his actions led to a player going off for a HIA and never returning.

How anyone can say it's not a red card or that it's a harsh red card astounds me. It really does.

AbusesToilets · 19-03-2023 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375152#Comment_120375152

Wish i could say I was shocked they didn't get pinged for it, but it's par for the course these days. At some points it was almost comical how far forward they were, especially further out the line. You could hear the crowd jeering repeatedly for it.

It's an area I wish WR would put better emphasis on. Defenses are already stifling enough.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375300#Comment_120375300

I'd say you are an astounded man today!

Faugheen · 19-03-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375297#Comment_120375297

Ok, so he's running towards a player where the ball is going to and is not trying to tackle him? He's just running towards him and showing the elbow instead?

Honestly lads, the takes here are wild this morning.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 10:51am

Forget the red card ,harsh or not Are we winning the world cup?

walshb · 19-03-2023 10:57am

The World Cup is a different beast altogether. Huge amounts goes into it. We will be a tough match for any the big boys, as they will be for us.

I just think the SA/NZ lads seem to manage the WC tournaments the best. France also seem to gel and excel in these 7 game tournaments. Throw in Aus and Argentina and it’s a huge task.

I think we’re around 3rd favorites to win

aloooof · 19-03-2023 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375310#Comment_120375310

Honestly lads, the takes here are wild this morning.

Well, we agree on something. Gonna leave it there.

lawrencesummers · 19-03-2023 11:02am

The fact that keenan had to go off because of the hit says all you need to know about the hit being worthy of a red card or not.

clsmooth · 19-03-2023 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375335#Comment_120375335

It really doesn’t. And if it had been Steward running into Keenan’s elbow you’d have a different view. Unfortunate collision. Penalty and a yellow (which if it was for Keenan I’d still argue over but grudgingly accept) would have been a fairer call.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 11:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375330#Comment_120375330

Yeah the odds are rightly low but it still feels bizzare seeing them that low for us to win a world cup haha. I think with a new coach and lots of new player past world cup failures shouldn't come into it too much and it being close to home is great too. Would rather face NZ than France in a possible quarter

theVersatile · 19-03-2023 11:08am

The "he only had a split second to react" arguement is such bull. When Hansen first knocks the ball forward trying to offload, Steward is atleast ten if not fifteen metres back.

He then proceeds to charge in at speed, turn the shoulder, and clatter Keenan. Peyper highlighted it as such when he says "clear line of sight throughout"

It's so unnecessary and completely reckless. If Steward just tried to make a normal tackle (which he is allowed to do if Keenan is attempting to gain control of the ball - and is therefore in possession per the rules), or just checks his feet even a little bit, this is avoided entirely. He has enough time to react - again, Peyper highlights this "Well, you had enough time to turn your shoulder...".

walshb · 19-03-2023 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375344#Comment_120375344

Yes…

on their day any the big teams can beat each other. But this WC is over 45 days or so. So much criteria to be factored in. It all goes towards results. It’s not just on-the-pitch action that can decide results.

SA in our group, so to win the group will be a big task in itself.

clsmooth · 19-03-2023 11:13am

If Steward had stayed committed and emptied Keenan with a legal tackle would we have been calling for a penalty and possibly more for a late tackle as the whistle had gone and the ball had obviously been knocked forward?

Former Former Former · 19-03-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375346#Comment_120375346

Exactly. You can't run 20 metres to tackle a guy, and then call it an accidental collision when you do.

Maybe he was trying to avoid hitting Keenan but he failed. He initiated the contact, direct contact to the head with a high degree of force and danger.

There just isn’t any way it's not a red, apart from the "game is gone soft" angle, and that's not Peyper's job.

Excellent refereeing.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375353#Comment_120375353

Yea true but winning the group isn't actually that important, cos it's France or NZ either way haha , I think we will do it mainly down to insane squad depth.

walshb · 19-03-2023 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375397#Comment_120375397

Think I’d rather France QF. I think NZ win their group. We might have better chance v France, but home team n all that. Massive games…

plus, winning your group can have a massive impact on confidence and morale. Goes back to so much involved in a WC tournament. Beating SA and wining group undefeated would be a huge confidence boost. So I would consider it quite important

roverjoyce · 19-03-2023 11:41am

Anybody who says that was a red have never played any level of sport, Soccer GAA

What Steward did was the natural instinct for an accidental collision, bracing for an impact

OldRio · 19-03-2023 11:42am

Well well. A grand Slam. Congratulations to all.

Ireland were not good yesterday. So many unforced errors and poor decisions. Its hardly surprising to be fair. The result was all that matters. Conan put some shift in when he came on. Bundee was quality as well.

One thing that puzzled me was the change in the offside law. Not sure when it was scrapped. As for the red card. If you were surprised it was given you really haven't been watching Rugby recently. Cast iron IMHO and well explained by Peyper.

walshb · 19-03-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

You’re conflating. As per rules it’s a red.

Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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